Silverhair
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Glad to hear that I can help in some small way.
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Dead in Sin
- Thread starter KenH
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Glad to hear that I can help in some small way.
The last one to know the knowledge they are increasing in others, is the one who gives it.
Anyone can read into scripture any sort of doctrine they desire.
First, the issue is NOT "preceding" grace. Of course God reveals Himself in order for us to be aware of invisible attributes. General and Special Revelation. That is NOT what Prevenient Grace is.
Prevenient Grace is the fictional enabling grace that allows the lost, who supposedly initially suffer from total spiritual inability, to be able to seek God and put their trust in Christ.
The issue is not what I like. I like the truth.
No one said anyone but Jesus, was righteous. We all have fallen short. But I expect you know that is NOT the issue.
Total Depravity, meaning "total spiritual inability" is the fiction. Many of the lost are indeed able to seek God, Luke 13:24. The fact that "None seek after God" does not mean "None of the lost ever seek after God until enabled by Prevenient Grace." It means "None seek after God all the time or when sinning, therefore, we all have fallen short of the glory of God (Jesus, God incarnate).
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Arminianism believes that total spiritual inability requires the lost to be enabled to seek God by "Enabling Grace."
For you to use the same label but mean "Revelatory Grace" which does not alter the innate limited spiritual ability of the lost is simply throwing a monkey wrench into the discussion.
Silverhair
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Craigbythesea
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Romans 5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Paul says in this passage that sin is not imputed when there is no law, but that people from Adam until Moses died, and he attributes their death to their culpability for the sin that they committed in Adam. In the Old Testament, we read repeatedly that people are punished for the sins of their ancestors:
Exodus 20:5. “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
6. but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.”
Exodus 34: 6. Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth;
7. who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”
8. Moses made haste to bow low toward the earth and worship
Deut. 5:8. ‘You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
9. ‘You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
10. but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.’
Jer. 32:17. ‘Ah Lord GOD! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm! Nothing is too difficult for You,
18. who shows lovingkindness to thousands, but repays the iniquity of fathers into the bosom of their children after them, O great and mighty God. The LORD of hosts is His name;
19. great in counsel and mighty in deed, whose eyes are open to all the ways of the sons of men, giving to everyone according to his ways and according to the fruit of his deeds;’
Nowhere in the Bible do we read that anyone inherited from Adam a propensity to sin. Nowhere in the Bible do we read that anyone inherited from Adam a physical component that gives him a propensity to sin. Adam chose to sin due to an outside influence, the serpent, and ever since Adam, people have continued to sin due to outside influences (see Eph. 6:12) taking advantage of their flesh—not due to an inside influence, an imaginary ‘sinful nature.’
The Bible neither says nor implies that man has a sin nature. In first-century Hellenistic (the cultural background of the New Testament) thought, the σαρχ (flesh) is the material part of man responsible for the desire of such things as food, drink, physical comfort, sex, etc. Therefore, Paul used the word σαρχ (flesh) to express that concept, sometimes with emphasis on the material itself, and sometimes with emphasis on the desires for which it is responsible. When these desires are contrary to the desires of God for the man, we find Paul contrasting the flesh with the Spirit, the two often-opposing sources of desire. When these desires are contrary to the desires of the intellect, the rational part of man, the νους (mind), we find Paul contrasting the flesh with the mind and its desires (Rom. 7:25).
Christ, in His humanity, shared this material part of man with all men (Rom. 1:3, 8:3), but He never yielded to the desires for which it is responsible. Paul taught that Christians are to identify with Christ through identifying with His death and resurrection, and to yield as Christ did, not to the desires of the flesh that result in sin, but to the desires of the Spirit that result in righteousness.
Nowhere in the Bible do we read that anyone inherited from Adam a physical component that gives him a propensity to sin. Human beings sin when they yield to temptations from outside of their body that take advantage of their flesh—a flesh that is identical to the flesh that Jesus had during His earthly ministry. These temptations are to be overcome by walking by the Spirit through faith in Christ.
(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)
Craigbythesea
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Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
The Lord is referring to “all”—just as the verse says.
2 Peter 3:9. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (NASB, 1995)
What!!!! You can't possibly do that!!!! If you do you might have to believe that Ephesins 2:1 is true and people really are dead in sin!
And if you believe that you might have to believe that Ephesians 2:5 is true, and it's God who makes us alive!
Then where shall we be?
LOL, don't esplode, it's just an expression I though appropriate at the time.
You should know I take every Word of God very seriously, not doubting a word of it.
Prevenient Grace is a fiction invented to resolve the invented fiction of total spiritual inability. To muddy the waters by claiming it "ONLY means God's grace received before ELECTION is simply an effort at deceit.
Thanks, good question concerning false doctrine!
We are born in "Unbelief" not having innate knowledge of the gospel. Unless the gospel is revealed to us, we cannot "come to" Him, meaning to place our faith and devotion toward Him. We must be "drawn" attracted by the gospel. Scripture says God draws people by lovingkindness (OT) and I believe He draws (attracts) people with lovingkindness in the age of grace, under the New Covenant. We love Him, because He first loved us. Jeremiah 31:3
1) The Phrase "sinned in Adam" is not found in scripture. But all those conceived in Adam, in the realm of darkness, do sin if they live long enough. Aborted preborns did NOT sin in Adam, but they were "made sinners."
2) We are conceived in unbelief, therefore condemned to death from the beginning, as a consequence of Adam's sin.
3) Scripture teaches sin causes hardship for descendants of sinners. In other words, as a consequence of sin, we were all made sinners, separated from God, with a corrupted spirit, prone to sin.
4) Yes, I agree, the consequence of the Fall, is not passed "biologically." It is passed spiritually, such as Eve having her eyes opened.
5) No, we sin due to Satan's snares, the World's influence and our internal "fleshly desires.
6) The "Old man" sometimes translated as "Old Self" or "Sinful Nature" refers to our our memory of our characteristics, attributes and attitudes prior to being born anew. See this thread for more on that topic: The Old Self
7) Ephesians 6:12, says our struggle is NOT against the physical world, but against wickedness of the spiritual world. We have fleshly desires, say hunger, and therefore hunger is not a sin, but if we engage in gluttony, not exercising self control, that is a sin. Both our hunger and controlling our will are internal forces, one physical, one utilizing spiritual guidance.
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Sure we do not save ourselves or contribute to our salvation. But we do gain access to God's grace through putting our faith and devotion toward Christ. Does NOT result in salvation, but if God chooses to credit our faith as righteousness, then God transfers us spiritually into Christ, resulting in our salvation.
I avoided the phrase "totally depraved" as others use the phrase to mean unable as a lost person to understand spiritual milk or seek God and His blessings. We love Him because He first loved us, not because an invisible supernatural beam altered our nature to be able to understand God loved us.
Well, to be honest about it, I also avoid using the phrase "totally depraved" unless I have to go into detail on the matter.
It's associated with a different meaning in Calvinism, and can be misleading as to its true meaning.
But nevertheless the phrase is true, but we need to know the difference.
KenH
Well-Known Member
All of God's elect - the sheep that Christ died for, their sins having been imputed to Him and His perfect righteousness having been imputed to them.
All of God's elect - those He chose before the world began and gave to His Son to be their Surety. None of those whom God reprobated before the world began.
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