DEAD MEANS DEAD!

[Jim1999]

you don't need to gather all the verses that mention death, but all the passages of scripture relating to death, and understanding them in context.

Why is it you reject the finality of "death" in the fall of man, and regarding having a free will, but interpret death, at your convenience, as a final state. Soul sleep never was and never will be a part of scripture.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Look guys, Im only the messenger, dont blame me that Protestantism adopted pagan spiritualism doctrines from the Catholics...

Claudia, Your allegations are false.
First, I wouldn't trust anything written by that false prophet Ellen G. White. If you are going to post here do not post her literature. Do not post from the Great Controversy.
Secondly the doctrine of the immortality of the soul is clearly taught in 1Cor.15. Study the Bible rather than Ellen G. White's literature and you will be a lot less confused.
DHK

 

[thjplgvp]

Claudia, those are very interesting thoughts but not very theological in that they are all one dimensional.

Death can be separation, death can be a spiritual condition, death can be the loss of breath, and death can be a state of being.

In Revelation 20:13 and the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Notice that "death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them" How could a person end up in hell dead if he were not dead?

The rich man and Lazarus is not a parable please show me any parable where Jesus named a person by name.

All parables are miniature mysteries defining a spiritual dimension of the kingdom of God and that is why you constantly see the disciples coming to Christ and asking for an interpretation of what he said. There is no such dialog in Luke 16 for there is nothing to suggest that it is not a story of truth and that the rich man is not named because of family and friends.

If you choose to believe the way you do that is fine with me but when I die my spirit will go to be with the Lord who gave it to me.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

My spirit and my soul will be in heaven with my Lord awaiting the resurrection of my dead and corrupted body. I am glad I am born again because my original body ain't gonna make it out alive.

 

[Claudia_T]

I dont remember saying that I was confused. And I thought I remembered presenting MANY Bible verses on this subject already, and so I dont know why you would tell me to study the Bible instead of Ellen White.

 

[Claudia_T]

"Another place proving that the dead have no . . . feeling. There is, saith he, no duty, no science, no knowledge, no wisdom there. Solomon judgeth that the dead are asleep, and feel nothing at all. For the dead lie there, accounting neither days nor years, but when they are awaked, they shall seem to have slept scarce one minute."-- Martin Luther, Exposition of Solomon's Booke Called Ecclesiastes, page 152


There, I hope that is more acceptable.

 

[thjplgvp]

Claudia, I was not aware that you are SDA. You certainly must be thick skinned to post on this board. That would explain the random scrptures taken out of context.

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Look guys, Im only the messenger, dont blame me that Protestantism adopted pagan spiritualism doctrines from the Catholics...

Secondly the doctrine of the immortality of the soul is clearly taught in 1Cor.15. DHK </font>[/QUOTE]I dont know, DHK .. I just dont see natural immortality of the soul being taught here:

I Corinthians 15:

20: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


that clearly teaches that you are not immortal until the second coming of Christ

 

[Claudia_T]

I dont know, I dont see natural immortality of the soul taught here either

I Corinthians 15:
1: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

 

[Claudia_T]

DHK,

You know what? It just dawned on me that perhaps you dont know what Natural Immortality of the Soul is...


That is the pagan teaching that says that we are BORN with an immortal soul.

But you see, the BIBLE teaches us that we "put on" immortality at the second coming of Christ.


1Tm:6:15,16
...the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
...Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Sorry if I confused you.


Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by thjplgvp:
Claudia, I was not aware that you are SDA. You certainly must be thick skinned to post on this board. That would explain the random scrptures taken out of context.

Ohhhhhh I see... thanks for the explanation

 

[JFox1]

No matter what Bible verses you use, she will interpret them through the lens of a Seventh-Day Adventist. I ran into something similar in 1999, when I had a heated discussion with a follower of Herbert Armstrong. No matter what Bible verses I quoted to refute Armstrong's teachings, he would reinterpret the passages to make them fit what Armstrong taught.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by JFox1:
No matter what Bible verses you use, she will interpret them through the lens of a Seventh-Day Adventist. I ran into something similar in 1999, when I had a heated discussion with a follower of Herbert Armstrong. No matter what Bible verses I quoted to refute Armstrong's teachings, he would reinterpret the passages to make them fit what Armstrong taught.

reinterpret the passages to make them fit ....

Yes that is easy to do in short order. This is also easy to do on this BB. Where the missleading takes places is looking at one part of a passage. Yet I have found when you take the misleader to the beginning of the book and get the flow of the subject, false teachings fall to the truth. Armstrong and White and JW build doctrine on misleading others on a few verses, and using KEY words in the right places. It takes time, and is a task hard to undertake, but if you MAKE them stick to the subject of the book, they will have to acknowledge the truth.

In Christ..James

 

[JFox1]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
[QB] It is important to understand this doctrine because the false doctrine of the dead going straight to heaven or hell and not being dead came from the Roman Catholic church and it is the very foundation of SPIRITUALSIM.

/QB]

C'mon, Claudia! Just because we Protestants believe in a conscious afterlife doesn't mean we're a bunch of New Age spirit channelers. Where did you get that idea?

Oh, wait a minute! I'm getting a message. It's from Adolf Hitler: "Ah am coming back und zis time, no more Mr. Nice Guy!"

I'm getting one more message: "This is Peter Jennings reporting. Good night."

It just astounds me that you think we're a bunch of spirit channelers.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jarthur001: It takes time, and is a task hard to undertake, but if you MAKE them stick to the subject of the book, they will have to acknowledge the truth.

In Christ..James

Hi James,
Are you absolutely sure it will work? I have been trying to do that with those of many persuasions for years and found it to be a very rare occurrence.

Sad but true, there are a lot of stiff necked individuals out there that will never listen to reason and consequently will never change their minds. Jeremiah’s congregation was evidently all like that. Duty is ours, the results belong to the Lord.

 

[Claudia_T]

You see, here's the thing... first of all, people need to understand what the SOUL really is.

Imagine a light bulb. There's the bulb and then there's the electricity that goes through the bulb. Without the two being together, it pretty much is useless.

The same with a soul. There's your body and there's your spirit. All your spirit is... is the breath of life.... and the Body plus the Spirit equals the Soul.
See here?? dust (body) plus breath equals the soul...

Genesis 2:7
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Job 27:3
"All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils."

then when you DIE... THIS HAPPENS:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
" Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

The body turns BACK to dust again, and the spirit which is your breathm goes back to God who gave it. The spirit of every person who dies returns to God at the time of their death.


Here is my lightbulb explanation, so to speak:

James 2:26
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."


The 'spirit' does not have any life, intelligence, or feeling after a person dies. It is just the "breath of life" and nothing else.


OKAY so the question is, can your soul die or is it NATURALLY immortal at birth?

Ezekiel 18:20
" The soul that sinneth, it shall die. "
Revelation 16:3
"Every living soul died in the sea."

Mt:10:28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Only God is immortal (I Timothy 6:15,16).

Job 4:17: Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

We do not have an undying, immortal soul, Immortality is "put on" at the second coming of Christ, and not before then.

And as I said before, we dont go to heaven when we die and then God sticks us back into the grave only to resurrect us again, that would be absurd..

John 5:28,29
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth."
Acts 2:29,34

John 14:
2: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Why would Jesus say when He comes again that at THAT TIME he would receive us unto Himself that where He is there we may be also... if we are ALREADY THERE after we die??

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Claudia: The same with a soul. There's your body and there's your spirit. All your spirit is... is the breath of life.... and the Body plus the Spirit equals the Soul.
See here?? dust (body) plus breath equals the soul...

HP: Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

What does the Spirit of Christ consist of, and where does it reside? If Scripture tells us that we are not 'of the flesh,' what are we of and where do we reside?

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by Heavenly Pilgrim:
Jarthur001: It takes time, and is a task hard to undertake, but if you MAKE them stick to the subject of the book, they will have to acknowledge the truth.

In Christ..James

Hi James,
Are you absolutely sure it will work? I have been trying to do that with those of many persuasions for years and found it to be a very rare occurrence.

Sad but true, there are a lot of stiff necked individuals out there that will never listen to reason and consequently will never change their minds. Jeremiah’s congregation was evidently all like that. Duty is ours, the results belong to the Lord.

Hi HP..

Sometimes its not what they say, its what they will not say. You can see it in their eyes. There is no need to PUSH them. Layout the truth and Let God work in their heart.

I love when JWs come to me house for a bible study. I always say yes. When they come back next week...i pull out my Bible and say...ok this is my house I will lead the study. I can start in nearly any book, and if I go though the whole book, within 3 weeks you will see a change.

They try to jump off the path. I make them read the text ..and ask them what it says. They will say, yes but John says this.

I say..We will study John if you want...but what does this say?

They say...But mark says this.
I say... After we are done with this book, we will study John or Mark or any book you want. What does this book say?

Am I absolutely sure? I do not do the work. I only share. It is God that works in hearts. Yet i know that the one power that I have in my hands that i can place in the hands of another person is Gods Word. Now other groups read the Bible too. But this is always mixxed with another source. The best way I can help is to place the book in their hands..stay there with them as they read....ask them what it means...not let them pull from other sources...MAKE them read the Bible and only the Bible.

At that point..its up to God. But it works better then anything else i have tried.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

James,
I like your approach! I will remember that one. I always approach the JW’s by sharing my personal testimony as to what the Lord has done in my life and my present hope of eternal life, and ask them to tell me what God has done for them and what is their eternal hope at this time. As the nervousness sets in upon them, I sometimes query them as the scholarship of those that translated the version of Scripture they use. Of course they have no idea even who they were, due to those responsible translating it are ‘anonymous.’ How convenient. Instead of them coming to my house, I have tried inviting myself to theirs. So far none have given me their address or phone number.

In the past I read their literature in order to understand the error better, but having done that once, it was enough. I usually offered them a deal, I will read yours and discuss it with you, if you will read mine and discuss it with me. I never had a taker.
Consequently I kindly refuse to read any of their literature either.

 

[Brother Bob]

The last JW that came to my house we started discussing the Scripture and they go so mad they went down my driveway swinging their fists at me and I hollowed at them the Bible says "to get anger but sin not". They for some reason don't visit me anymore.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I posted this back on page one, and have had no takers so far. Anyone desire to tackle this post?

The word 'dead' is indeed an interesting word. Some think that to be dead is dead, and that it is a no-brainer to understand that. I for one feel that might not be the case in all uses of the word.

Some say that Scripture teaches that we were ‘dead in our trespasses and sins,’ and that is to be interpreted that it was ‘impossible’ for us to do anything other than sin. If we take that definition of ‘dead’, and apply it to being ‘dead indeed to sin’ as believers, would it be consistent and correct to conclude that it is impossible for believers to sin, just as being dead before we became believers is believed to imply that it was ‘impossible’ to do anything other than to sin?