Dead to the Ten Commandments

[DHK]

Maybe you should stop listening to your Pastor.

An unwarranted personal attack. Soon these will stop.

Why did you not reply to all the questions and comments I gave to you from your post to me? You must have a hard time with your theory.

As far as I know I have answered your objections, unless they are personal attacks.

Jesus said they would receive the Holy Spirit when they obey.

Jesus said no such thing to an unsaved person.

Here is another scripture that you and your Pastor can ignore.

Acts 5:29 Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than men!

Are you inferring that the apostles are unsaved?

30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. 31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

This is a reference to the three thousand that were saved, and a reference that God will give forgiveness of sins to all of the nation of Israel that will repent and believe on Christ.

32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Were the apostles unsaved?
Were those that believed unsaved?
That is who is being referenced here, not the unsaved enemies of the cross. God does not give the Holy Spirit to the unsaved.

Did you see that? No? Are you able to see?

I do not see the teaching that Peter in his epistles calls "damnable heresy."
That is what you teach. God does not give the Holy Spirit to unsaved people. You teach a gospel (if one can call it that) of works, not of faith.

 

[Amy.G]

No matter how you try to cut it, the fact is that they would get the Holy Spirit when they obeyed. Therefore, why you think you can get the Holy Spirit for not obeying is beyond me.

What is the verse that says that they would get the Holy Spirit when "they obeyed"? I'm not familiar with that.

 

[Moriah]

The Holy Spirit comes to persons for a varity of reasons. He comes upon even lost people to empower them to perform a certain task. Cyrus is an example of this in Isaiah. He comes upon saved people to empower them, and this is what being "filled" with the Spirit is about or to "walk" in the Spirit.

You said, “He comes upon saved people to empower them…” The Holy Spirit LIVES IN SAVED PEOPLE.

He comes to regenerate and indwell the elect. He comes experientially in blessings upon his people when they are obedient giving them the sense of his presence.

You said He comes “experientially.” I just do not recognize what you say as the Word of God.

He comes upon "the house of God" in shikinah glory publicly accrediting it as the PUBLIC HOUSE OF WORSHIP. He did this with the tabernacle (Ex. 40). He did this with the temple (1 Kgn 7). He did this with the congregation of Christ (Acts 2:1-2) who were all previously saved and individually were all born again believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit. That is the difference between 1 Cor. 3:16 (the plural "you" as the congregational temple - 1 Pet. 2:5) as the temple of the Holy Spirit versus 1 Cor. 6:19 and the individual believer as the temple of the Holy Spirit.

I do not have any idea what you are trying to explain.
1 Corinthians 3:16 is about our bodies being the temple of the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 6:19 is about our bodies being the temple of the Holy Spirit.
All what you say here does not disprove that Jesus gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey.

 

[The Biblicist]

You said, “He comes upon saved people to empower them…” The Holy Spirit LIVES IN SAVED PEOPLE.

Yes, he lives in saved people. However, the words "come upon" is used in the Old and New Testament to describe the OUTWARD manifestations of power and so coming "upon" is descriptive from the OUTWARD perspective without denying the inward dwelling of the Holy Spirit. For example, in Acts 8 and those baptized believers at Samaria the Holy Spirit had not "come upon" them yet. When the two apostles laid their hands upon them they received the Holy Spirit in regard to EXTERNAL MANIFESTATIONS as speaking in tongues and other apostolic signs and wonders communicated through the laying on of hands by the apostles.

You said He comes “experientially.” I just do not recognize what you say as the Word of God.

We experience salvation in our life when we are obedient to Christ. That experience is manfiested externally and providentially through answers of prayer. It is experienced internally by joy, peace, and consciousness of His presence and leadership.

I do not have any idea what you are trying to explain.
1 Corinthians 3:16 is about our bodies being the temple of the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 6:19 is about our bodies being the temple of the Holy Spirit.
All what you say here does not disprove that Jesus gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey.

If you will study 1 Corinthians 3:5-16 you will see the context is ministers of God working together under the leadership of the Holy Spirit in building/founding New Testament congregations (v. 9). Hence. verse 16 does not refer to the individual child of God (Plural "you") but to the whole congregation as a SINGULAR "temple" of the Holy Spirit. The plural "you" as a singular "temple" as a congregational body. Whereas, 1 Cor. 6:19 deals with the SINGULAR you as a SINGULAR temple and refers to your physical body.

The manifestations of the Spirit in the plural "you" as the singular "house" or "temple" of God - the congregation - is seen in the variety of gifts among the membership, the truth being taught and witnessed within the congregation and the proper gospel and ordinances being administered.

 

[Moriah]

An unwarranted personal attack. Soon these will stop.

Do NOT speak about my Pastor if you do not like your Pastor brought up.

As far as I know I have answered your objections, unless they are personal attacks.

You have not answered my questions. Go answer my questions if only Christians get married. Go answer my question if only Christians forgive people.

Jesus said no such thing to an unsaved person.

Did Jesus choose not Judas? Was Judas a disciple of Jesus?

Are you inferring that the apostles are unsaved?

You said no one gets the Holy Spirit before they are saved. You said Jesus had already saved the disciples whom he said would get the Holy Spirit if they obey him.

This is a reference to the three thousand that were saved, and a reference that God will give forgiveness of sins to all of the nation of Israel that will repent and believe on Christ.

How do you think this disproves what I said? You cannot disprove the Word of God. You cannot disprove that the Word of God says he will give his Spirit to those who obey.

Were the apostles unsaved?
Were those that believed unsaved?
That is who is being referenced here, not the unsaved enemies of the cross. God does not give the Holy Spirit to the unsaved.

Your argument is null, you cannot disprove that Jesus gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey.

I do not see the teaching that Peter in his epistles calls "damnable heresy."
That is what you teach. God does not give the Holy Spirit to unsaved people. You teach a gospel (if one can call it that) of works, not of faith.

That does not make sense what you say. You said, “God does not give the Holy Spirit to unsaved people.” Are you saying God saves people first then later gives them the Holy Spirit?
God does not give His Spirit to people until He accepts them! We receive the Holy Spirit when God accepts us (Acts 15:8).
Acts 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

 

[Moriah]

What is the verse that says that they would get the Holy Spirit when "they obeyed"? I'm not familiar with that.

Those who obey God receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:32).

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

 

[Moriah]

Yes, he lives in saved people. However, the words "come upon" is used in the Old and New Testament to describe the OUTWARD manifestations of power and so coming "upon" is descriptive from the OUTWARD perspective without denying the inward dwelling of the Holy Spirit. For example, in Acts 8 and those baptized believers at Samaria the Holy Spirit had not "come upon" them yet. When the two apostles laid their hands upon them they received the Holy Spirit in regard to EXTERNAL MANIFESTATIONS as speaking in tongues and other apostolic signs and wonders communicated through the laying on of hands by the apostles.




We experience salvation in our life when we are obedient to Christ. That experience is manfiested externally and providentially through answers of prayer. It is experienced internally by joy, peace, and consciousness of His presence and leadership.



If you will study 1 Corinthians 3:5-16 you will see the context is ministers of God working together under the leadership of the Holy Spirit in building/founding New Testament congregations (v. 9). Hence. verse 16 does not refer to the individual child of God (Plural "you") but to the whole congregation as a SINGULAR "temple" of the Holy Spirit. The plural "you" as a singular "temple" as a congregational body. Whereas, 1 Cor. 6:19 deals with the SINGULAR you as a SINGULAR temple and refers to your physical body.

The manifestations of the Spirit in the plural "you" as the singular "house" or "temple" of God - the congregation - is seen in the variety of gifts among the membership, the truth being taught and witnessed within the congregation and the proper gospel and ordinances being administered.

Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit.

Nothing you say changes that.

Nothing you say here disproves that we receive the Holy Spirit when we obey.

 

[saturneptune]

Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit.

Nothing you say changes that.

Nothing you say here disproves that we receive the Holy Spirit when we obey.

So, if we take your thread posts in their totality, we can conclude, that since you are sinless for a time span greater than a 24 hour day, and while you obey, the Holy Spirit is with you, that the Holy Spirit is on a 24 hour, one second cycle in you and then leaves. I guess my question is, where does He go, and how do you get Him back to start your next 24 hour sinless day?

 

[Moriah]

So, if we take your thread posts in their totality, we can conclude, that since you are sinless for a time span greater than a 24 hour day, and while you obey, the Holy Spirit is with you, that the Holy Spirit is on a 24 hour, one second cycle in you and then leaves. I guess my question is, where does He go, and how do you get Him back to start your next 24 hour sinless day?

Are you talking about the Holy Spirit leaving people as in losing their salvation? I am trying hard to understand you.

We first receive the Holy Spirit when we obey. We receive the Holy Spirit when God who knows our hearts accepts us.

 

[The Biblicist]

Those who obey God receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:32).

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

This text does not say the Holy Spirit is given BECAUSE we obey him. But that is how you are reading it or reading INTO it. Those who obey him are also given eternal life, given a home in heaven, given all things necessary for life, given a new name, given precious promises.

Your interpretation contradicts the repeated Pauline teaching that we are justified by faith "WITHOUT WORKS" (Rom. 4:5-6) and that grace is "NOT OF WORKS" (Eph. 2:8-9) and that "good works" FOLLOW but do not obtain or precede being created in Christ (Eph. 2:10).

So why should we read Acts 5:32 as though it said "the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those BECAUSE they obey him" when it does not say that???

The only thing this text says is that those who obey him are those who have the Holy Spirit and in this context it is the witness of the Holy Spirit accompanies the witness of the apostles.

 

[DHK]

Do NOT speak about my Pastor if you do not like your Pastor brought up.

Look! I advised you to speak to "your pastor" (or any other spiritual leader if you so desire), so you can grow from the milk of the word of God, and get out of the confusion that you are in. It was advice.
You called my pastor a false teacher. For attacks like you can be banned.
Don't you see the difference? I did not speak a word against your pastor!

You have not answered my questions. Go answer my questions if only Christians get married. Go answer my question if only Christians forgive people.

I am not going to search through the thread to find out what they were. I don't recall them. State them again, and then I will answer them.

Did Jesus choose not Judas? Was Judas a disciple of Jesus?

Yes, and your point is???? Judas was a disciple; a follower of Jesus, an unsaved one.

You said no one gets the Holy Spirit before they are saved. You said Jesus had already saved the disciples whom he said would get the Holy Spirit if they obey him.

They believed in Christ at the Messiah. The Holy Spirit did not come until the Day of Pentecost. If you don't understand these basic truths you should sit down and have a Bible study with your pastor or any other spiritual leader that you feel comfortable with.
Look at Peter's confession:

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
--What did Jesus say about it?
Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
--And yet the Holy Spirit had not yet been given, and would not be given until the Day of Pentecost.

How do you think this disproves what I said? You cannot disprove the Word of God. You cannot disprove that the Word of God says he will give his Spirit to those who obey.

This was the Day of Pentecost. The gospel was preached. 3,000 were saved. The Holy Spirit had come on that day. On that day they all were indwelt with the Holy Spirit, as was evidenced by the miraculous events that had just taken place.

Your argument is null, you cannot disprove that Jesus gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey.

What argument? People do not get saved through obedience. That is what Muslims say. Are you a Muslim? Someday you will be "good enough" to please Allah?

That does not make sense what you say. You said, “God does not give the Holy Spirit to unsaved people.” Are you saying God saves people first then later gives them the Holy Spirit?

Yes, of course. He does not give the Holy Spirit to an unsaved person. It is not that much later. But as soon as he repents; as soon as he trusts Christ as his Savior, not before.

God does not give His Spirit to people until He accepts them! We receive the Holy Spirit when God accepts us (Acts 15:8).

Then why are you saying God gives the Holy Spirit to them that are unsaved, even if they "obey" him. Good works are as filthy rags. They are useless in God's sight.

Acts 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

He gave those that trusted Christ the Holy Spirit. What is so hard to understand?

 

[Moriah]

Look! I advised you to speak to "your pastor" (or any other spiritual leader if you so desire), so you can grow from the milk of the word of God, and get out of the confusion that you are in. It was advice.
You called my pastor a false teacher. For attacks like you can be banned.
Don't you see the difference? I did not speak a word against your pastor!

You need to grow and get out of your confusion. Who got you so confused? Do you not see you are hypocritical? Stop harassing me. Your harassment of me could stand up for legal action in a civil court. Just as your slanderous writings to me.

 

[The Biblicist]

You need to grow and get out of your confusion. Who got you so confused? Do you not see you are hypocritical? Stop harassing me. Your harassment of me could stand up for legal action in a civil court. Just as your slanderous writings to me.

Moriah, the very threat of "your hassasment of me could stand up for legal action in a civil court" casts great doubt upon your profession of faith.

Don't you understand that you are on a DEBATE forum???????? DHK is challenging your positions and that is what this forum is about. If you cannot take the heat then go some other place or stop acting like a child.

 

[Moriah]

Moriah, the very threat of "your hassasment of me could stand up for legal action in a civil court" casts great doubt upon your profession of faith.

Don't you understand that you are on a DEBATE forum???????? DHK is challenging your positions and that is what this forum is about. If you cannot take the heat then go some other place or stop acting like a child.

You just cannot stop yourself from personally attacking me. As for the part I said about DHK's harassment can stand up in court---I got that idea from him, because he said that to me. Now stop harassing me!

 

[The Biblicist]

You just cannot stop yourself from personally attacking me. As for the part I said about DHK's harassment can stand up in court---I got that idea from him, because he said that to me. Now stop harassing me!

So you can make outlandish charges, outlandish interpretations of Scripture but if we DEBATE those charges on this DEBATE forum we are "harassing" you?????? So anyone who disagrees with you is "harassing" you?

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes, he lives in saved people. However, the words "come upon" is used in the Old and New Testament to describe the OUTWARD manifestations of power and so coming "upon" is descriptive from the OUTWARD perspective without denying the inward dwelling of the Holy Spirit. For example, in Acts 8 and those baptized believers at Samaria the Holy Spirit had not "come upon" them yet. When the two apostles laid their hands upon them they received the Holy Spirit in regard to EXTERNAL MANIFESTATIONS as speaking in tongues and other apostolic signs and wonders communicated through the laying on of hands by the apostles.




We experience salvation in our life when we are obedient to Christ. That experience is manfiested externally and providentially through answers of prayer. It is experienced internally by joy, peace, and consciousness of His presence and leadership.



If you will study 1 Corinthians 3:5-16 you will see the context is ministers of God working together under the leadership of the Holy Spirit in building/founding New Testament congregations (v. 9). Hence. verse 16 does not refer to the individual child of God (Plural "you") but to the whole congregation as a SINGULAR "temple" of the Holy Spirit. The plural "you" as a singular "temple" as a congregational body. Whereas, 1 Cor. 6:19 deals with the SINGULAR you as a SINGULAR temple and refers to your physical body.

The manifestations of the Spirit in the plural "you" as the singular "house" or "temple" of God - the congregation - is seen in the variety of gifts among the membership, the truth being taught and witnessed within the congregation and the proper gospel and ordinances being administered.

You have not responded to my response to your post!

 

[Moriah]

So you can make outlandish charges, outlandish interpretations of Scripture but if we DEBATE those charges on this DEBATE forum we are "harassing" you?????? So anyone who disagrees with you is "harassing" you?

Talk about the scriptures with me all you want. I love talking about the Bible. Just stop with the personal attacks.

 

[The Biblicist]

The OP is that we are dead to the Ten commandments not that the ten commandments are dead.

Paul makes it clear that the Jews were NEVER justified by observing the law even though they were responsible to keep it (Acts 13:39; Rom. 3:19-20).

We have pointed out that even though Israel was God's chosen people AS A NATION from among other nations they were never saved as a nation but were a rebellious and stiff necked people who never really ever kept the Law of God according to its real demands.

Paul teaches clearly we are justified by faith "WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW" (Rom. 3:28) and "WITHOUT WORKS" (Rom. 4:5-6). Paul teaches that "good works" FOLLOW being created in Christ by regeneration (Eph. 2:10) rather than preceding regeneration.

This does not mean "good works" do not follow and accompany progressive sanctification as they are essential to progressive sanctification but not to justification before God.

 

[Moriah]

The OP is that we are dead to the Ten commandments not that the ten commandments are dead.

Paul makes it clear that the Jews were NEVER justified by observing the law even though they were responsible to keep it (Acts 13:39; Rom. 3:19-20).

We have pointed out that even though Israel was God's chosen people AS A NATION from among other nations they were never saved as a nation but were a rebellious and stiff necked people who never really ever kept the Law of God according to its real demands.

Paul teaches clearly we are justified by faith "WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW" (Rom. 3:28) and "WITHOUT WORKS" (Rom. 4:5-6). Paul teaches that "good works" FOLLOW being created in Christ by regeneration (Eph. 2:10) rather than preceding regeneration.

This does not mean "good works" do not follow and accompany progressive sanctification as they are essential to progressive sanctification but not to justification before God.

With your reasoning, then anyone who believes in Jesus is saved, whether or not they are a Catholic, Mormon, JW, etc.

With your reasoning, I was saved from the time I could remember believing in God and Jesus. I have believed in God and Jesus since I was a young child.

Is this what you are saying?

 

[The Biblicist]

With your reasoning, then anyone who believes in Jesus is saved, whether or not they are a Catholic, Mormon, JW, etc.

With your reasoning, I was saved from the time I could remember believing in God and Jesus. I have believed in God and Jesus since I was a young child.

Is this what you are saying?

In regard to the gospel of Jesus Christ faith is "IN" the promised gospel provision thus RECEIVING it or EMBRACING the promise by faith alone. This is spelled out especially in Romans 3:24-5:2. The promised provision declared in the gospel is that Christ's own faithfulness satisfied all the requirements of God IN OUR BEHALF to be justified before God. Hence, faith in his FAITHFULNESS for us. Obedience to this good news is repenting of our sins and receiving it as finished by Christ alone without trying to add to his faithfulness as the provision for eternal life.

Now true gospel believers who have received this good news by faith, now respond out of love for Christ which love has been created in us by the power of the Holy Spirit through regeneration through FAITHFULNESS to God's commandments - thus we are "created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works" - Eph. 2:10.

I say "true" gospel believers because all those who receive Christ after this manner are also born of the Spirit and have a new nature and the indwelling Spirit which reacts to being justified through faith by faithfulness to Jesus Christ in keeping His commandments.

I say "true" gospel beleivers because false gospel believers are without the regenerating Spirit of God and therefore are without true repentance of sin and/or fail to understand and receive the finished work of Christ as sufficient but attempt to either add or subtract from what the Gospel declares as sufficient and thus finished.

Hence, the bottom line is the difference between faith "IN" something versus faithfulness "TO" someone! In a truly saved person are both but faith "IN" always precedes faithfulness "TO" Christ.