Therefore, if JWs, SDAs, Mormons, Catholics, anyone, who says they believe in God through Jesus by faith alone and not works, then they are saved?
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Dead to the Ten Commandments
- Thread starter The Biblicist
- Start date
Therefore, if JWs, SDAs, Mormons, Catholics, anyone, who says they believe in God through Jesus by faith alone and not works, then they are saved?
Try reading what I said again. That is not what I said. I clearly said that both faith "IN" and faithfulness "TO" are inseparable in the truely saved person but faith "IN" precedes faithfulness "TO."
JW's and Mormons do not believe "IN" the true gospel of Jesus Christ nor do they believe in the Biblical "Jesus." They believe in their concept of the gospel plus works in order to be saved. Their concept of the gospel is not "good news" that Jesus satisfied and paid in full, finished, thus fully satisifed all that God righteousness demands to be justified before God. They deny this truth. They believe that faith in Christ (as they perceive him) plus their own good works obtain ultimate justification before God. They cannot claim they are "saved" but only have "hope" they shall be saved if their good works outweigh their bad works on the day of judgement.
You said, "Repenting," repenting is stopping sin. Therefore, are you claiming that believers must also repent from sinning before being saved? Are you admitting that we must repent; we must stop sinning before we are saved?
You are now changing it here by saying a person is already saved and then has repentance.
Then what do you believe about any person as long as they believe in Jesus on faith alone? How about a Catholic who does not understand their religion of works, but they believe in Jesus?
Same question concerning a Mormon, etc.
What about the person who is in no religion but has heard of Jesus and says they believe?
Gospel repentance is not stopping sin but rather it is a change of heart about sin and is acknowelgement that you CANNOT save yourself from sins condemnation or sin in your life but you are trusting in Christ to save you from its condemnation and progressively save you from sin in your life. Gospel repentance is a change of mind about sin brought on by enlightenment of what sin is and conviction you are a sinner. Faith is trusting Christ to accomplish what you admit YOU CANNOT DO - HE is the one that saved you from its future condemnation and He alone can progressively save you from sins in your life. Without me ye CAN DO NOTHING." However, gospe repentance and faith occur together as one cannot occur without the other. Conviction over sin without faith in Christ is "worldly sorrow" as it has no savior from sin. True gospel repentance finds salvation in Christ and is impossible without faith in Christ.
Repentance and faith are inseparable graces. When a person turns from sin they must be turning to Christ in order to be saved from not only the future condemnation of their sins but progressive deliverance from the power of sin althrough their life. Itis progressive because we are NEVER saved from the presence of sin until the glorification and we NEVER completely overcome the power of sin until glorification.
Christ by his own faithfulness in our behalf has won the WAR against sin, death and Satan and we are victorious by faith in Him. However, we have not won the BATTLES with sin by our faithfulness. We lose some battles and we win some battles. Christian growth is determined by winning more battles than losing but we never "attain" being "perfect" in this life (Philip 3:12-14) but we neverless "press toward" that mark constantly as nothing else will satisfy the soul of a truely saved person.
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First, I would ask WHAT Jesus they believe in? If it is the Biblical Jesus, then fine - however, neither JW's or Mormons believe in the Biblical Jesus and therefore they cannot be saved (Jn. 17:3).
Second, I would ask WHAT kind of gospel they are beleiving in? There are only two gospels or two ways presented in scriptures as contrasting gospels or contrasting ways.
Those who are believing in Jesus plus their own good works - cannot be saved as they are rejecting the very essence of the true gospel that declares Christ's satisfication is SUFFICIENT "without works." By affirming the necessity of their "works" they are rejecting Jesus Christ.
I believe that one must have faith and repent. That is obeying Jesus.
Now, we will separate ways here if you claim that is not obeying when we repent.
I have been telling you that we cannot receive the Holy Spirit until we obey Jesus.
Will you admit that repenting is obeying Jesus?
Now, if you say repenting cannot be done until someone is already saved, then we do not believe the same.
Please clarify what you believe.
I can show you scripture that says we repent before salvation.
Gospel OBEDIENCE is performed INTERNALLY with the heart (Rom. 10:8). Gospel repentance is a CHANGE of heart toward sin and Gospel faith is admission that YOU cannot stop sinning, nor can YOU save yourself from sins condemnation. Gospel OBEDIENCE is SUBMISSION by faith to the good news of the Gospel trusting "IN" Christ to have done and to do what YOU CANNOT DO! That is the OBEDIENCE that accompanies the presence and power of the Holy Spir and which is impossible to do apart from the presence and power of the Holy Spirit simply because YOU cannot change your heart because if YOU could change your own heart you would not need Christ to stop sinning nor would you need the Holy Spirit because you would be your own savior.
Gospel repentance and the Holy Spirit's power is best described in the words of the prophet "Turn us O Lord and we shall be turned." You cannot separate this relationship between the Holy Spirit and true gospel repentance. It is his POWER that turns us from sin but if He turns us then we turn from sin.
Your interpretation of the text you are basing your belief upon is simply wrong. That text does not say the Holy Spirit is given to them BECAUSE they obeyed God! It does not say that! Can you admit it does not say that? Obedience is not presented as the cause but rather those who obey God give witness that they have been given the Holy Spirit or else they would never obey ON THEIR OWN POWER!
Are you saying, that when we are glorified, that we will then be free of sin, and that is the only time we have to overcome sin? Now, are you saying being glorified is having our new bodies at the resurrection? Does not the scripture say that day is the Day of Judgment? That is the day we will finally be judged. It is the day our works good and evil will be called into account, even every careless word we have spoken, see Matthew 12:36. Revelation 20:12 says, “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged ACCORDING TO WHAT THEY HAD DONE as recorded in the books.” In addition, as Christ is judging the 7 churches in the book of Revelation, He says to every single one, “I know your works”. Revelation 2:2; 9; 13; 19; 3:1; 8; 15.
Jesus says, “To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.” See Revelation 3:21.
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You are wrong. That scripture does say the Holy Spirit is given to them when they obey. It does say that. Acts 5:32 also says that.
You say we repent after we are already saved; however, that is not what the Bible says.
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Did you see that? Peter says they will receive the Holy Spirit after they repent.
Acts 3:19
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
Did you see that? Repent, and turn to God. This scripture does not say God has already saved them.
Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”
Did you see that? The scripture says, "Repentance unto life." Repentance unto life, not life unto repentance. Repentance leads to life.
Acts 20:21
I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.
Acts 26:20
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
Did you see that? "Repentance that leads to salvation." Not "Salvation that leads to repentance."
Yes, only at that point when dwelling in our body will we be free from the PRESENCE as well as the POWER of sin completely - see 1 Jn. 3:1-2 and 1 Cor. 15:54-58.
No, because we have nothing to do with overcoming sin at the resurrection/glorification as that is an completely by the power of God without our help whatsoever.
No, because right now we are to resist sin and when we fail, and we do fail, we are to confess it and then forget it and go right back battling sin in our lives. We are not battling sin in order to obtain heaven! We are battling sin because we have a new nature within us that hates sin and loves righteousness and cannot be satisfied by anything less than pressing toward perfection - see Ephesians 4:24 and Col. 3:20. We battle sin because when we fail to resist sin we are miserable and lose our joy and the peace "of" God and nothing else will relieve that internal misery other than confession of sin and renewing our battle against sin.
No! The resurrection and glorification of the body occurs BEFORE the judgement seat of Christ at the coming of Christ when we are raised up out of the grave (see 1 Cor. 15:53-58 and Philip. 3:21-22).
No! The saved are already glorified when they come out of the grave at the coming of Christ BEFORE the judgement seat. They are already sinless in spirit and body before they stand before Christ to be judged for REWARDS. They do not come before God to be judged by their works to see if they will escape eternal condemnation and obtain heaven as that judgement has already occurred - John 5:24 and will not reoccur for the saints. You are confusing the judgement of the lost UNDER THE LAW (Rom. 2:10-12) with the saints UNDER GRACE (Rom. 6:14-15). You are confusing judging the lost by their works to see their reward in hell with judging the saints to see their rewards in heaven.
All of these promises have to do with the New Heaven and earth in Revelation 21 after the great white seat judgement in Revelatin 20. They have to do with ruling over the "SAVED NATIONS" in Revelation 21:24 and what aspect of the tree of life they are priviledge to partake in Rev. 22:2-3. The "SAVED NATIONS" are those who have entered the new heavens and earth as "SAVED" but who did not overcome in faithfulness but were saved "even as by fire" (1 Cor. 3:14-15).
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Think about this! Since the redeemed are raised from the grave in a glorified body BEFORE they come to the judgement seat, how could God be judging their works to determine if they will enter heaven or hell since they are already SINLESS in condition! The SINLESS glorified saints do not stand before the Lord to be judged whether they will enter heaven or not but to determine what their rewards IN heaven will be just as the lost do not stand before the Lord to determine if they will go to hell or not but to determine what their reward of punishment IN hell will be.
You need to read the next scripture! 1 John 3:3 Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.
Did you see that?
Where do you get that I said we overcome sin at the resurrection?
Our reward is eternal life. You cannot dismiss that fact.
Of course, we are resurrected first. You have no legitimate argument against what I said. When we are raised and judged on our works, we will be judged on our works. Just because we receive resurrected bodies does not mean we will not be judged on our works.
I am not confusing anything.
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You said the nations would be saved even though they did not overcome. Think about this, how do you know you will not be among those nations?
1 Cor. 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Philip. 3:21 [B]Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body[/B], according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
When the body of the saints are RAISED from the the grave they are RAISED AS GLORIFIED SINLESS bodies BEFORE they come before the Lord. Hence, they are not coming before the Lord to be judged according to their works to see if they will enter heaven or go to hell because no sinless glorified person goes to hell. They are judged according to their works to see what is their rewards IN HEAVEN.
See my post above.
Biblicist, did you forget about these?
Because the provisions, obstacles and conditions for overcoming are described in Revelation 2-3. He is not addressing lost people but members of New Testament congregations. He is addressing those who have "ears" to hear what the Spirit saith and thus saved people.
They are those who belong to New Testament congregations and therefore are properly baptized believers.
They are those who continue in the faith once delivered.
At the beginning of every letter the Lord provides a picture of Himself that supplies what they need to overcome the specific obstacles they are facing. They overcome by looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of their faith.
They are those who are faithful to what the Lord reveals to them and when they sin they confess and go right back at it.
They go right back at it? Right back at the sin?
Matthew 10:22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Luke 21:19 By standing firm you will gain life.
Galatians 6:9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
Revelation 2:26 To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations--
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Originally Posted by Moriah
You are wrong. That scripture does say the Holy Spirit is given to them when they obey. It does say that. Acts 5:32 also says that.
You say we repent after we are already saved; however, that is not what the Bible says.Acts 2:38
I understand this to be "life" obtained judicially by justification not regenerative life by the Holy Spirit. Regeneration and justification are not one and the same thing. Regeneration imparts eternal life to my person. However, justification imputes eternal life legally to my position before God. Repentance unto life refers to life obtained LEGALLY before God through faith in Christ.
I know I need to lay a better foundation for you to understand what I mean. Think of it this way. When you transgress the law of God that is sin and when you sin you come under the condemnation of the Law which is ETERNAL DEATH. The verdict of the law is ETERNAL DEATH. When you are justified by faith the verdict of the law is changed from ETERNAL DEATH to ETERNAL LIFE. Repentance and faith are inseparable and when you are justified by faith - justification is a legal term that declares you are legally removed from under the condemnation of eternal death and to the legal approbation of eternal life. Hence, when we are born of the Spirit we obtain eternal life by Spiritual union with God. However, by faith we obtain judicial eternal life through justification. The former has to do with new birth and our own person while the latter has to do with justification and our position in Christ before God.
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Did you see that? Peter says they will receive the Holy Spirit after they repent.
My understanding of the "gift" is the sign gifts or manifestation of the Holy Spirit that drew the crowds to hear Peter and the apostles and the manifestations of the Spirit he immediately goes on to explain in the very next verse, if you will continue to read the next verse. He is referring back to the sign gifts spoken of by Joel promised to the Jews who receive Christ.
Acts 3:19
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
Did you see that? Repent, and turn to God. This scripture does not say God has already saved them.
My understanding of this text is the millennial kingdom promised by the Prophets. When Israel receives the Christ the kingdom of God on earth will be ushered in. However, they rejected Christ as a nation but they will as a nation come to him at His return (Rom. 11:25-26).
Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”
Did you see that? The scripture says, "Repentance unto life." Repentance unto life, not life unto repentance. Repentance leads to life.
I answered this above - legal and positional life by justification.
Acts 20:21
I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.
This text does not support your position.
Acts 26:20
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
I believe that true salvation (repentance and faith in the gospel or obedience to the gospel) is demonstrated by our works - Eph. 2:10. However, he is not saying they must do this IN ORDER to be saved.
2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
Did you see that? "Repentance that leads to salvation." Not "Salvation that leads to repentance."
I don't believe that repentance leads to salvation (justification by faith) but I do not believe that repentance leads to regeneration.
Let me explain. The term "salvation" is a huge umbrella term that includes many different aspects of salvation. It includes past tense, present tense and future tense salvation. It includes election, regeneration, justification, sanctification and glorification. So one cannot loosely use the term "salvation" without defining what aspect the context is expressly speaking about. In 2 Cor. 7:10 I believe the term "salvation" refers to that aspect of salvaiton called justificaiton not regeneration.
However, I believe that regeneration occurs simeltaneneous with repentance as it is the power for repentance.
You are wrong. That scripture does say the Holy Spirit is given to them when they obey. It does say that. Acts 5:32 also says that.
You say we repent after we are already saved; however, that is not what the Bible says.Acts 2:38
I understand this to be "life" obtained judicially by justification not regenerative life by the Holy Spirit. Regeneration and justification are not one and the same thing. Regeneration imparts eternal life to my person. However, justification imputes eternal life legally to my position before God. Repentance unto life refers to life obtained LEGALLY before God through faith in Christ.
I know I need to lay a better foundation for you to understand what I mean. Think of it this way. When you transgress the law of God that is sin and when you sin you come under the condemnation of the Law which is ETERNAL DEATH. The verdict of the law is ETERNAL DEATH. When you are justified by faith the verdict of the law is changed from ETERNAL DEATH to ETERNAL LIFE. Repentance and faith are inseparable and when you are justified by faith - justification is a legal term that declares you are legally removed from under the condemnation of eternal death and to the legal approbation of eternal life. Hence, when we are born of the Spirit we obtain eternal life by Spiritual union with God. However, by faith we obtain judicial eternal life through justification. The former has to do with new birth and our own person while the latter has to do with justification and our position in Christ before God.
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Did you see that? Peter says they will receive the Holy Spirit after they repent.
My understanding of the "gift" is the sign gifts or manifestation of the Holy Spirit that drew the crowds to hear Peter and the apostles and the manifestations of the Spirit he immediately goes on to explain in the very next verse, if you will continue to read the next verse. He is referring back to the sign gifts spoken of by Joel promised to the Jews who receive Christ.
Acts 3:19
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
Did you see that? Repent, and turn to God. This scripture does not say God has already saved them.
My understanding of this text is the millennial kingdom promised by the Prophets. When Israel receives the Christ the kingdom of God on earth will be ushered in. However, they rejected Christ as a nation but they will as a nation come to him at His return (Rom. 11:25-26).
Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”
Did you see that? The scripture says, "Repentance unto life." Repentance unto life, not life unto repentance. Repentance leads to life.
I answered this above - legal and positional life by justification.
Acts 20:21
I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.
This text does not support your position.
Acts 26:20
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
I believe that true salvation (repentance and faith in the gospel or obedience to the gospel) is demonstrated by our works - Eph. 2:10. However, he is not saying they must do this IN ORDER to be saved.
2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
Did you see that? "Repentance that leads to salvation." Not "Salvation that leads to repentance."
I don't believe that repentance leads to salvation (justification by faith) but I do not believe that repentance leads to regeneration.
Let me explain. The term "salvation" is a huge umbrella term that includes many different aspects of salvation. It includes past tense, present tense and future tense salvation. It includes election, regeneration, justification, sanctification and glorification. So one cannot loosely use the term "salvation" without defining what aspect the context is expressly speaking about. In 2 Cor. 7:10 I believe the term "salvation" refers to that aspect of salvaiton called justificaiton not regeneration.
However, I believe that regeneration occurs simeltaneneous with repentance as it is the power for repentance.