Death before Adam

[Deacon]

Did God Intend Death? [LINK]
by Bethany Sollereder (May 2016)


“God never intended death! Death in all its forms is a contradiction of God’s creation, and a result of sin!”

The preacher’s voice boomed out from the pulpit. He had been building up to this point for a good half hour, and I was ready to join his rhetorical heights with enthusiasm. But, as chance would have it, I had an itch on my arm. When I scratched it, I noticed some skin came away under my nail. Looking at that little bit of sloughed off skin, the spell was broken. This was death too. Was my skin cells’ death also a result of sin?

The preacher was talking about human death, of course. But every human’s life is dependent on the death of others. When I eat, I destroy life. Robert Farrar Capon has reasonably said, “A vegetarian creation is no answer. It is only our human chauvinism that is satisfied when literal bloodshed is ruled out. The lettuces still, in their own way, take a dim view of having to cease being lettuces; as they can, they fight it.” When I breathe, I inhale whole ecosystems of microbial organisms. The cells in my body are continually dying. During my fetal development, countless cells underwent a programmed death (called apoptosis) so that I could form normally. My ability to hear and see the preacher denounce death was dependent on the ongoing death of millions of perfectly healthy cells in my body.

So, perhaps the preacher’s statement “God never intended death!” was too strong. Perhaps there are only certain types of death that God did not intend.
[/quote]

 

[TCassidy]

Or, perhaps plucking the fruit of the trees in the garden, which contained perfect nutrition, was not death. Perhaps the fruit was not alive. Perhaps only the tree itself was alive. Perhaps. Perhaps. Perhaps.

 

[tyndale1946]

Or, perhaps plucking the fruit of the trees in the garden, which contained perfect nutrition, was not death. Perhaps the fruit was not alive. Perhaps only the tree itself was alive. Perhaps. Perhaps. Perhaps.

I agree!... If it is not perhaps... It is what if?... The perhaps and the what ifs never happened but men in their foolish imaginations still want to speculate... Instead of embracing truths they want to chase lies... Brother Glen

 

[Happy]

Death was intended.

Mankind was created natural. That which is natural CAN NOT be born spiritual, unless the natural first DIES.

1Cor.15

1. [36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

 

[Happy]

Death before Adam ~ ?

Yes. One. Called the Word of God.

 

[Calv1]

Did God Intend Death? [LINK]
by Bethany Sollereder (May 2016)


“God never intended death! Death in all its forms is a contradiction of God’s creation, and a result of sin!”

The preacher’s voice boomed out from the pulpit. He had been building up to this point for a good half hour, and I was ready to join his rhetorical heights with enthusiasm. But, as chance would have it, I had an itch on my arm. When I scratched it, I noticed some skin came away under my nail. Looking at that little bit of sloughed off skin, the spell was broken. This was death too. Was my skin cells’ death also a result of sin?

The preacher was talking about human death, of course. But every human’s life is dependent on the death of others. When I eat, I destroy life. Robert Farrar Capon has reasonably said, “A vegetarian creation is no answer. It is only our human chauvinism that is satisfied when literal bloodshed is ruled out. The lettuces still, in their own way, take a dim view of having to cease being lettuces; as they can, they fight it.” When I breathe, I inhale whole ecosystems of microbial organisms. The cells in my body are continually dying. During my fetal development, countless cells underwent a programmed death (called apoptosis) so that I could form normally. My ability to hear and see the preacher denounce death was dependent on the ongoing death of millions of perfectly healthy cells in my body.

So, perhaps the preacher’s statement “God never intended death!” was too strong. Perhaps there are only certain types of death that God did not intend.

[/QUOTE]

I think you're making several category errors here.

First you are assuming we are the same physiologically today as we were pre-fall. The bible states that Jesus came "In the form of sinful flesh", so immediately the question arises "What is non sinful flesh look like". The Church sees the fall as dramatic, IE Giant Gems turning into rocks, fluorescent trees into what we see today, and so on. So to assume our bodies are how they were pre-fall is a category error.

Second, this preacher is wrong, Christ was crucified "Before the foundation of the world", all that happens is ordained by His Hand, included in that is death.

Thanks

 

[Reynolds]

Or, perhaps plucking the fruit of the trees in the garden, which contained perfect nutrition, was not death. Perhaps the fruit was not alive. Perhaps only the tree itself was alive. Perhaps. Perhaps. Perhaps.

I think the life referenced here would be associated with blood; Animal life.

 

[Happy]

I think the life referenced here would be associated with blood; Animal life.

Death BEFORE Adam, is the "killing of the Word" of God, which is accomplished by REJECTING the Word of God, which was accomplished IN Heaven, (By Lucifer), before mankind was created, during the time the earth was being created, which caused Lucifer to become cast down to earth, (losing his holiness, his holy heavenly estate, his name), and becoming an occupant of earth, (his current estate) BEFORE mankind, being dubbed Satan the Devil, the "father" (ie "first"), LIAR, "father" of Lies, the first MURDERER, as Scripture reveals such knowledge.

 

[FollowTheWay]

I think you're making several category errors here.

First you are assuming we are the same physiologically today as we were pre-fall. The bible states that Jesus came "In the form of sinful flesh", so immediately the question arises "What is non sinful flesh look like". The Church sees the fall as dramatic, IE Giant Gems turning into rocks, fluorescent trees into what we see today, and so on. So to assume our bodies are how they were pre-fall is a category error.

Second, this preacher is wrong, Christ was crucified "Before the foundation of the world", all that happens is ordained by His Hand, included in that is death.

Thanks[/QUOTE]
Christ's crucifixion was planned before the foundation of the world. He died on the cross in time as specified by the Bible.

 

[Happy]

First you are assuming we are the same physiologically today as we were pre-fall. The bible states that Jesus came "In the form of sinful flesh", so immediately the question arises "What is non sinful flesh look like".

Agree.

Additionally is another most obvious question to "In the form of sinful flesh"....

WHY? Which Scripture also answers.

The Church sees the fall as dramatic, IE Giant Gems turning into rocks, fluorescent trees into what we see today, and so on. So to assume our bodies are how they were pre-fall is a category error.

Agree. And to presume God does not KNOW all things, and forgot to PREPARE for all things, is additionally an error.

Second, this preacher is wrong, Christ was crucified "Before the foundation of the world", all that happens is ordained by His Hand, included in that is death.

Agree. Scripture itself reveals;

1) Human men WHO, submit in faithfulness TO God, is the KEY factor required of a human man, and IS thereafter followed by Gods own faithful response to fulfill His Word regarding ANY human man WHO submits to Him in faithfulness.
2) Such human men, ARE thereafter, called AND accounted AS; saints, whole, beloved, favored, righteous, sanctified, justified, kept, preserved, etc.
3) Christ reiterates; the KEY factor must be accomplished, BY ALL men, BEFORE they can be allowed entrance into Gods Kingdom.
4) ALL men, is exclusive of ALL of mankind, period. (regardless of the era they were formed out of the dust of the earth).

Christ's crucifixion was planned before the foundation of the world. He died on the cross in time as specified by the Bible.

Agree.

 

[Calminian]

Plants/trees are not alive in the sense that humans and air breaking animals are alive. You're all making a very specific nomenclature error.

Something was alive in Scripture if it breathed air as we do (had the "breath of life"). During the flood, for instance, God killed all air-breathing humans and land animals. That is not to say He killed everything we would call, today, biologically alive. He was not speaking of plants and trees, nor likely bugs and insects who don't breath as we do, or don't have the "breath of life."

Gen. 1:30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

Gen. 2:7 Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Gen. 6:17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.

Gen. 7:15 Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life in them came to Noah and entered the ark.

Gen. 7:22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.​

Plants also don't have life in the blood as Reynolds mentioned (Lev. 17:14).

From AiG:

What is the difference between plants and animals or man? For the answer we need to look at the phrase nephesh chayyah. Nephesh chayyah is used in the Bible to describe sea creatures (Genesis 1:20–21), land animals (Genesis 1:24), birds (Genesis 1:30), and man (Genesis 2:7). Nephesh is never used to refer to plants. Man specifically is denoted as nephesh chayyah, a living soul, after God breathed into him the breath of life. This contrasts with God telling the earth on Day Three to bring forth plants (Genesis 1:11). The science of taxonomy, the study of scientific classification, makes the same distinction between plants and animals.​

Since God gave only plants (including their fruits and seeds) as food for man and animals, then Adam, Eve, and all animals and birds were originally vegetarian (Genesis 1:29–30). Plants were to be a resource of the earth that God provided for the benefit of nephesh chayyah creatures—both animals and man. Plants did not “die,” as in mût; they were clearly consumed as food. Scripture describes plants as withering (Hebrew yabesh), which means “to dry up.” This term is more descriptive of a plant or plant part ceasing to function biologically.​

.......When plants wither or shed leaves, various organisms, including bacteria and fungi, play an active part in recycling plant matter and thus in providing food for man and animals. These decay agents do not appear to be nephesh chayyah and would also have a life cycle as nutrients are reclaimed through this “very good” biological cycle. As the plant withers, it may produce vibrant colors because, as a leaf ceases to function, the chlorophyll degrades, revealing the colors of previously hidden pigments.​

Since decay involves the breakdown of complex sugars and carbohydrates into simpler nutrients, we see evidence for the Second Law of Thermodynamics before the Fall of mankind. But in the pre-Fall world this process would have been a perfect system, which God described as “very good.”
​

Full article:
Do Leaves Die?
by Michael Todhunter

 

[Aaron]

Or, perhaps plucking the fruit of the trees in the garden, which contained perfect nutrition, was not death. Perhaps the fruit was not alive. Perhaps only the tree itself was alive. Perhaps. Perhaps. Perhaps.

Was going to say just this thing.
(TCassidy now doubts himself, lol.)

 

[Revmitchell]

Did God Intend Death? [LINK]
by Bethany Sollereder (May 2016)


“God never intended death! Death in all its forms is a contradiction of God’s creation, and a result of sin!”

The preacher’s voice boomed out from the pulpit. He had been building up to this point for a good half hour, and I was ready to join his rhetorical heights with enthusiasm. But, as chance would have it, I had an itch on my arm. When I scratched it, I noticed some skin came away under my nail. Looking at that little bit of sloughed off skin, the spell was broken. This was death too. Was my skin cells’ death also a result of sin?

The preacher was talking about human death, of course. But every human’s life is dependent on the death of others. When I eat, I destroy life. Robert Farrar Capon has reasonably said, “A vegetarian creation is no answer. It is only our human chauvinism that is satisfied when literal bloodshed is ruled out. The lettuces still, in their own way, take a dim view of having to cease being lettuces; as they can, they fight it.” When I breathe, I inhale whole ecosystems of microbial organisms. The cells in my body are continually dying. During my fetal development, countless cells underwent a programmed death (called apoptosis) so that I could form normally. My ability to hear and see the preacher denounce death was dependent on the ongoing death of millions of perfectly healthy cells in my body.

So, perhaps the preacher’s statement “God never intended death!” was too strong. Perhaps there are only certain types of death that God did not intend.

[/QUOTE]

Perhaps one is trying to make something out of nothing.