Death before the age of accountability

[AndThisGospel]

How many know how many infants have been murdered through abortion since 1973? Answer: 58,586,256*

None of these infants reached the age of accountability, which means none of them knew of Christ and were able to exercise faith in Him.

What does Calvinism do with this fact?

* http://www.nrlc.org/uploads/factsheets/FS01AbortionintheUS.pdf

 

[JamesL]

How many know how many infants have been murdered through abortion since 1973? Answer: 58,586,256*

None of these infants reached the age of accountability, which means none of them knew of Christ and were able to exercise faith in Him.

What does Calvinism do with this fact?

* http://www.nrlc.org/uploads/factsheets/FS01AbortionintheUS.pdf

I'm curious from where you derive your "age of accountability"

If babies are born sharing in Adam's guilt, how are they not accountable already?

 

[AndThisGospel]

I'm curious from where you derive your "age of accountability"

As far as I know that phrase is not used in the Bible, but its principle can be demonstrated.

Paul states that, "where there is no law there is no transgression". Romans 4:15 He also states that, "sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law" Rom 5:13

Now, are infants sinners? Yes. How so? They are self-centered (selfish). The are born, at no fault of their own, "bent-to-self". They are born with a fallen nature.

Now, that being said, they are not transgressors. Transgression requires a knowledge of the law either directly (such as the law) or through the conscience. God's law doesn't charge you with guilt (transgression) without your own volition.

Here's how one dictionary defines "Volition":

Volition is the cognitive process by which an individual decides on and commits to a particular course of action.

If babies are born sharing in Adam's guilt, how are they not accountable already?

We aren't born guilty of Adam's sin, rather we stand condemned because we share Adam's fallen life indwelt by iniquity. There's a difference.

 

[AndThisGospel]

Transgression requires a knowledge of the law either directly (such as the law) or through the conscience. God's law doesn't charge you with guilt (transgression) without your own volition.

Here's more proof:

Romans 3:9 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Here's another one:

I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Rom 7:7

 

[AndThisGospel]

My position is that all infants who die before the age of accountability are they safe "in Christ". I use two main verses, although there's more to support my position: Romans 5:13* & Romans 5:18**.

My position is that while babies are sinners they are not transgressors* and Christ's atonement has justified these little ones unto eternal life**. They are saved by grace, as we all are, but they can't chose to exercise faith. They are safe in Christ Jesus.

However, I am aware that there are other positions:

1. Since babies are born without sin they will be saved.
2. Since babies are born with the guilt of Adam's sin they will be saved only after infant baptism.
3. Since God knows what choice they would make had they reached the age of accountability,
that will decide their eternal destiny.
4. The eternal destiny of babies depends on the choice of their parents.

 

[annsni]

Let's add in #5 - God knows all. He knows the heart. He can cause a dead man to rise from the dead and He can cause a dead heart to respond to the gospel. He will do what is absolutely right for every soul and no one is unjustly in hell and no one is unjustly in heaven.

 

[AndThisGospel]

Let's add in #5 - God knows all. He knows the heart.

Yes, and he knows an infant doesn't have the cognitive ability to reason or respond to the gospel call.

He will do what is absolutely right for every soul and no one is unjustly in hell and no one is unjustly in heaven.

I agree....

 

[JamesL]

Yes, and he knows an infant doesn't have the cognitive ability to reason or respond to the gospel call.....

Seems you're attempting to pigeon hole God into something He's never said

 

[JamesL]

My position is that all infants who die before the age of accountability are they safe "in Christ". I use two main verses, although there's more to support my position: Romans 5:13* & Romans 5:18**......

Why do you use two verses which have nothing to do with the issue?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

There was a great long thread on this subject just a few weeks ago.
http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/infants-in-hell.102968/
I'm not going through the issue again, thanks all the same.

 

[JamesL]

Now, are infants sinners? Yes. How so? They are self-centered (selfish). The are born, at no fault of their own, "bent-to-self". They are born with a fallen nature.

Now, that being said, they are not transgressors. Transgression requires a knowledge of the law either directly (such as the law) or through the conscience. God's law doesn't charge you with guilt (transgression) without your own volition.

Here's how one dictionary defines "Volition":

Volition is the cognitive process by which an individual decides on and commits to a particular course of action.



We aren't born guilty of Adam's sin, rather we stand condemned because we share Adam's fallen life indwelt by iniquity. There's a difference.

You sure are jumping from one assumption to another.

Not one piece of your commentary can be found in scripture.

 

[AndThisGospel]

You sure are jumping from one assumption to another. Not one piece of your commentary can be found in scripture.

No, Romans chapter five is very clear.

 

[JamesL]

No, Romans chapter five is very clear.

Apparently not....

You're bringing assumptions to that passage, but you can't see it.

Paul was giving hope of bodily resurrection after his presentation of the gospel.

Read the first 10 verses of chapter 5...
Having been justified
We've received the Spirit
Having been reconciled by His death
We shall be "saved" by His life..

Christ is the first fruits of resurrection. His life will be our life.

As it relates to verses 13-14...

The Law has ZERO prescription for people going to hell or any eternal consequences..

The Law prescribed physical death. But even before the Law people were dying physically - because physical death entered the world through Adam.

God said to Adam "cursed is the GROUND because of you..."

That very ground from which Adam's physical body was formed

 

[JamesL]

.....Now, are infants sinners? Yes. How so? They are self-centered (selfish). The are born, at no fault of their own, "bent-to-self". They are born with a fallen nature.

Where is this supposed "fallen nature"? In the inner man which comes from God, or the outer man which comes from Adam?

We aren't born guilty of Adam's sin, rather we stand condemned because we share Adam's fallen life indwelt by iniquity. There's a difference.

I don't see anything in that drivel other than you trying to fabricate a doctrine to relieve the tension from a grave misunderstanding

 

[AndThisGospel]

I don't see anything in that drivel other than you trying to fabricate a doctrine to relieve the tension from a grave misunderstanding

Drivel: "silly nonsense"

I would appreciate a little less pretentiousness on your part if you wish to debate me.

 

[AndThisGospel]

The Law prescribed physical death. But even before the Law people were dying physically - because physical death entered the world through Adam.

Actually Adam was saved from the 2nd death, not the 1st death (what you termed "physical death")

The point is people were dying the 1st death because they shared Adam's fallen life indwelt with iniquity. The law, on the other hand, prescribed the 2nd death, which is goodbye to life forever with no hope of a resurrection. To be "under law" brings the 2nd death.....

 

[AndThisGospel]

Actually Adam was saved from the 2nd death, not the 1st death (what you termed "physical death")

The point is people were dying the 1st death because they shared Adam's fallen life indwelt with iniquity. The law, on the other hand, prescribed the 2nd death, which is goodbye to life forever with no hope of a resurrection. To be "under law" brings the 2nd death.....

John 11:25 I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live (future tense) even if he dies, (i.e., the 1st death)

26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die (i.e., the 2nd death).

 

[JamesL]

Actually Adam was saved from the 2nd death, not the 1st death (what you termed "physical death")

In the resurrection, everyone will be saved from the 1st death - the wrath of God - physical death. See John 5:28-29 - ALL who are in the tombs will come out. That's what Paul said in Romans 5

The point is people were dying the 1st death because they shared Adam's fallen life indwelt with iniquity.

Adam's fallen life indwelt with iniquity...what the heck is that supposed to mean?

People die physically because we are cursed with sin in our body.

The law, on the other hand, prescribed the 2nd death, which is goodbye to life forever with no hope of a resurrection. To be "under law" brings the 2nd death.....

Only if someone who is trying to be justified under the Law.

John 5:45
Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.

 

[JamesL]

Drivel: "silly nonsense"

I would appreciate a little less pretentiousness on your part if you wish to debate me.

I wasn't being pretentious at all.
You jump into the middle of a passage with a preconceived notion, give no regard to everything around your "proof" texts, and start making philosophical assertions that are aimed at being taken as seriously as scripture?

That there's drivel.

 

[AndThisGospel]

In the resurrection, everyone will be saved from the 1st death - the wrath of God - physical death.

No, no, no....The "curse of the law" is the 2nd death.

Adam's fallen life indwelt with iniquity...what the heck is that supposed to mean?

The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2]. It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning, and which makes us slaves to sin [Romans 3:9-12; 7:14].

People die physically because we are cursed with sin in our body.

We die because sin brings mortality and death. The 2nd death is God abandonment, which Christ as the Son of Man experienced on the cross. He took our curse, the 2nd death upon Himself.

Only if someone who is trying to be justified under the Law.

Everyone who doesn't have Christ is under law....They reject Him because they view themselves as good....