Deathblow to Arminian "Foreknowledge"

IMO it is probably not best to translate it as foreordain in this passage, but I can see why the translators did that. As I said, ginosko carries the notion of intimate knowledge, and to have intimate knowledge of someone (know them personally) before they're born can easily be understood as something foreordained, whereas to simply have knowledge of something in advance (know they will exist and what they will do) could only be translated as foreknowledge.

 

Concerning I Peter 1:20, what about the following?

In what way was the Son "proginosko"'ed? Is not the Son eternal? Isn't the Son always "ginosko'ed" by God? What is the force of "pro" (before) in this verse? Does it regard Jesus as a person? Does it have to do with time or something else?

 

The translation of 1 PEter 1;20 is right. The point is that Christ was foreordained to come to earth to die for sin but did not appear until recently. This usage disproves the notion that proginosko merely means knowing ahead of time. That would make no sense. It shows that it means "foreordain" or choose.

 

Sorry, Larry--just because you agree with that particular translation doesn't make it right. Once again, there is not a linguistic justification or logical requirement for translating "proginosko" as "foreordain".

 

Then you don't know linguistics or logic. Linguistically, the word means to choose, to set love on, to foreordain. Your argument there is not with me or with the verse but rather with the lexicons. This has been shown ad nauseum. Logically, what does it mean that ChrisT was forknown before the foundation of the world. That is a meaningless statement. It was only God before the foundation of the world. To suggest that is simply "knowing ahead of time" is as ludicrous as it is wrong.

 

Amen, Pastor!

Yet another verse in which Arminians have to pull out the can of "funky moe joe" to change the meaning of the text to fit their system.

Sam

 

Proginosko has many different meanings depending upon the context. One of these has been pointed out: "to know intimately, either by experience or personal inquiry, thus in a personal relationship". Another meaning among the several regards "establishment". I Peter 1:20's context seems to carry this idea and may have been why the word was translated "foreordain".

Context is the key. Yet one's understanding of the context depends upon personal theology.

I think the only issue is the statement in the opening piece:

This is more a reflection of personal theology than a clear meaning of the word proginosko in Rom.8:29. Romans 8 is a different context. But again, understanding of context depends upon one's beliefs.

 

Then you don't know linguistics or logic. Linguistically, the word means to choose, to set love on, to foreordain. Your argument there is not with me or with the verse but rather with the lexicons. This has been shown ad nauseum. Logically, what does it mean that ChrisT was forknown before the foundation of the world. That is a meaningless statement. It was only God before the foundation of the world. To suggest that is simply "knowing ahead of time" is as ludicrous as it is wrong.</font>[/QUOTE]YOU have yet to demonstrate from a lexicon the word "proginosko" means "to choose". My expository dictionary says NOTHING about "choosing" or "ordaining" under the definitions of "ginosko" or "proginosko". So LINGUISTICALLY you have NOT shown this "ad nauseam" (unless it is buried somewhere in the thread). LOGICALLY, Christ was "foreknown" before the foundation of the world in the sense that He was "intimately known" before the foundation of the world. What's so hard about THAT to understand??? How is THAT illogical??? I've never suggested that "to foreknow" is "simply 'knowing ahead of time'"; I HAVE pointed out that even in the sense of "intimate knowledge", "progisko" still cannot be reduced to or redefined as "to choose" or "to ordain". With whom are you arguing?

 

4267 proginosko {prog-in-oce'-ko}
from 4253 and 1097; TDNT - 1:715,119; v
AV - foreknow 2, foreordain 1, know 1, know before 1; 5
1) to have knowledge before hand
2) to foreknow
2a) of those whom God elected to salvation
(strong's number 4267)

 

4267

proginwskw
proginosko
prog-in-oce'-ko

from pro - pro 4253 and ginwskw - ginosko 1097; to know beforehand, i.e. foresee:--foreknow (ordain), know (before).

 

Greek: proginosko
"to know beforehand," is used (a) of the Divine "foreknowledge" concerning believers, Rom 8:29; Israel, 11:2; Christ as the Lamb of God, 1Pe 1:20, RV, "foreknown" (AV, "foreordained"); (b) of human previous "knowledge," of a person, Act 26:5, RV, "having knowledge of" (AV, "which knew"); of facts, 2Pe 3:17. See FOREKNOW.

 

Links for the above

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRGRK42.htm#S4267

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/choice/1043864666-2758.html

 

Nope--I re-read the posts in this thread and did NOT see Pastor Larry (or anyone else for that matter) demonstrate that "choose" is a possible LEXICAL meaning of "proginosko". It isn't enough to point out that certain Bible VERSIONS have so TRANSLATED it (ie "foreORDAIN" in 1 Pet 1:20 in the KJV; this is the same version that translated "Pascha" as "Easter" Acts 12:4)--I can show the NAS translating it "foreKNOWN" in the same place. The question is which translation is the more accurate based on the word's lexical meaning in Greek.

As I've posted before....

 

npetrely,

What Greek Lexicon are you using? In my experience, I've found many lexicons are compiled for Biblical Koine Greek only and have theological deffinitions. A good lexicon, IMO, that doesn't include any theolical prejudices is the one by Liddel & Scott. It's a very exhuastive lexicon and gives examples of common domestic usages as well as many other forms of writing (i.e Homer) during the era when Koine Greek was an active language.

 

Npetreley
Read the links:
Strongs:"...i.e. foresee:--foreknow (ordain), know (before)." The presence of "I.E", or "in other words", doesn't justify the tranlation as "foreSEE" or "foreORDAIN" from the word's lexical meanings in GREEK.

Vines: notes that the AV translates it "as foreordain" but again this does not prove this translation is correct. Again, the NAS translates LITERALLY as "foreKNOWN".

 

Doubting Thomas,

I think you're making some good points. IMO, the concept of "choose" from proginosko is simply a theolgical choice on one's part and is not necessarily supported or desupported from any lexical aids. Lexicons, just like dictionaries, have many, most, or all possible meanings of a word. The user then must make a choice about which deffinition fits best in the context. And context translation is based upon one's personal theology.

 

This merely says that the AV translates it foreordain. It is not listed as one of the two definitions.

 

Again - this just says that the AV translated it foreordained. It doesn't give it as a definition.

 

IN PAUL, the vb. proginosko, foreknow, choose beforehand, demonstrates teh character of God's activity among men. IT assumes the aspect of a personal relationship witha group of people which originates in God himself ... 1 PETer 1:20 says that christ was "Foreknown" or "destined" before the foundation of the world" (RSV). The noun prognosis denotes in 1 PETer 1:20 the foreknowledge of God, which is said to be for Christian in the Diaspora the ground of their election. Membership of the community in a completely differently orientated and partly hostile environment is accordingly grounded in the relationship which God takes up with men as their Father. ... Thus in the few relevant passages both the vb. and the noun speak chiefly of God's actions towards Christ or towards men, and witness to his activity as planned and directed. Any interpretation in terms of an impersonal constraint (SUCH as destiny, fate, or doom), or of an autonomy which removes itself from the normal course of world events would contradict the NT use of these words (from Colin Brown, New Internaional Dictionary of NEw Testament Theology and Exegesis, 1:693). See also TDNT 1:715.

The reality is that even though you are being shown in black and white, your theology prevents you from accepting it.