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Featured Debt vs. Penal Substitution

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Brooksntea, Nov 13, 2018.

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  1. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Disagree.

    If you ask the average Christian "what is the teaching of Penal Substitution?"

    The answer will probably be "HUH?".
     
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I miss the poke a stick in eye emoji.
     
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is true with a difference. I've actually done that.

    Three times I asked about a congregation's belief in the Theory of Penal Substitution. Each time a resounding "that is what we believe" came back. But when I say "so you believe that on the Cross God was wrathful to Christ, punishing Him for our sins" things change.

    In churches that affirm the Theory my experience has been that they in practice don't. They associate the Theory with the truth that Christ suffered and died for us, died because we have sinned, bore our transgressions, and that by His suffering we are healed. BUT when asked if God was punishing Christ with our punishment they prove themselves nominal theorists.
     
  4. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    The human mind shrinks from the wrath of God in all its ramifications.
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I would hope so.
    1 Pt 1:17-19
     
  6. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Both - Payment of debt and punishment.

    The whole of the crucifixion speaks of severe punishment, ridicule, contempt and humiliation for violations of law both Roman and Jewish.

    Beatings, spat upon, 40 lashes, crown of thorns, nailed "to a tree". A death of agony.

    Both are elements of the Propitiation. Full atonement.
     
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  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    My argument is not against penal substitution themes in the atonement. My argument is against the Theory of Penal Substitution.

    But my argument here is that neither Abelard or Anselm affirm anything close to the Theory of Penal Substitution and there is enough distinction between the two to consider them theologically opposed.

    My second argument is that the idea of God simply forgiving sins was not challenged until Anselm’s Cur Deus homo in the eleventh century. No one during almost the first millennia of the church saw conditions or obstacles to divine forgiveness (they saw obstacles to divine victory, but not forgiveness...to forgive sin meant that one was God - not that punishment had been expended).
     
  8. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Relax.
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Don't do it. When you want to go to it....

    Been to Hollywood, Frankie? :Biggrin
     
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  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    According to James White, Modalism is the default belief of the majority of American Christians, but that does not make the Doctrine of the Trinity a 'theory.' Nor is the Doctrine of Penal Substitution relegated to a theory because not everybody agrees with it.
     
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  11. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Not all these theories are wrong by any means. Christ did pay a ransom (Not to Satan, but to God's justice), Christ did rise as Victor from the grave and the cross should melt our hearts and cause us to repent. But none of them are sufficient unless there is also an understanding that Christ was also receiving on our behalf the rightful penalty for our sins, 'That He might be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.'

    So it is that one can find some of the FCFs talking about ransom theory at one moment and Penal Substitution the next.

    The cross is 'foolishness to the Greeks and a stumbling-block to the Jews.' The latter is brought out very clearly in Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho the Jew.'

    Trypho recognizes that the Christ must suffer, but he cannot bring himself to believe that He would be crucified, since the OT law teaches that anyone crucified is under God's curse (Deut. 21:23):

    'Then Trypho remarked, "Be assured that all our nation waits for Christ; and we admit that all the Scriptures which you have quoted refer to Him. Moreover I do admit that the name of Jesus, by which the son of [Nun] was called, has inclined me very strongly to adopt this view. But whether Christ should be so shamefully crucified, this we are in doubt about. For whoever is crucified is said in the law to be accursed, so that I am exceedingly incredulous on this point. It is quite clear, indeed, that the Scriptures announce that Christ had to suffer; but we wish to learn if you can prove to us whether it was by the suffering cursed in the law' [Sect. 89]

    Justin begins by assuring Trypho that Christ was not cursed for His own sins: 'Though a curse lies in the law against persons that are crucified, yet no curse rests on the Christ of God, by whom all that have committed things worthy of a curse are saved' [sect. 94]

    'For the whole human race will be found to be under a curse. For it is written in the law of Moses, "Cursed is everyone that coninueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them." And no one has accurately done all, nor will you venture to deny this........But if those who are under the law appear to be under a curse for not having observed all the requirements, how much more shall all the nations appear to be under a curse who practise idolatry, who seduce youths, and commit other crimes' [sect 95]

    Then Justin reaches the crux of his argument, where he explains that the reason why our Lord was crucified is that the curse which rested on us for our sin was transferred to Him.

    'If then, the Father of all wished His Christ for the whole human family to take upon Him the curses of all, knowing that after He had been crucified and was dead, He would raise Him up, why do you argue about Him, who submitted to suffer these things according to the Father's will, as if He were accursed, and do not rather bewail yourselves?' [sect 95, emphases added]

    This amounts to a clear statement of penal substitution. Although Christ was innocent, He bore the curse due to sinful humanity, enduring in His death the punishment due to us. Several others of the ECFs explain this doctrine on the basis of the 'curse' vocabulary of Gal. 3:13 and Deut, 21:23, including Eusebius of Caesarea ('Proof of the Gospel, bk.10, ch.1) and Hilary of Poitiers (Homily on Psalm 53 [actually 53], sect. 13).
     
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  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    There can be no reasonable dispute that Christ acted as a legal representative for his people (Rom.5:12-21) as the "Second Adam." In that legal representative position he stood in our place before the Law of God with regard to both the positive and negative demands of the law and there can be no reasonable dispute that violation of the law clearly demands penal wrath that is eternal and substantive in its anguish against those who commit sins. Our salvation is obtained both by, and in the bodily Person of Jesus Christ. His body was prepared for substitutionary atonement (Heb.10) and that atonement was not vacation in Florida but upon an instrument of penalization - the cross. Both Rome and the Jews looked at the cross as a penal instrument against law breakers. God's wrath was poured out upon Christ in the form of legal consequences not with regard to what he personally deserved but with regard to those he represented legally. The same is true with the positive side of the Law. In His on person, in his own body he satisfied all the righteous demands of the Law as a representative person in behalf of his people. His righteousness must be first imputed before it can be imparted and imputation is based wholly upon what Christ did in his own body in our behalf (imputed) and that is the legal basis for what the Spirit of Christ can do in our own body in his behalf (imparted)
     
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Elements of truth in a theory do not make the theory itself correct. All off the theories, to include the Theory of Penal Substitution, originate from a biblical basis.

    So the question is just how close do you believe Abelard and Anselm to the idea of a "sin debt"? It seems to me that Abelard was far from the idea but Anselm was a bit closer.

    The issue with Anselm is that he did not link Christ bearing punishment to paying a sin debt.

    The issue with your references, of course, is that prior to the eleventh century no barrier stood in the way of divine forgiveness. The "problem" instead was divine victory. Christ bore the consequences of human sin to gain a victory - not to provide a judicial path to forgiveness.

    So my answer remains - Anselm and Abelard both presented views that are contrary to ideas taught in the Theory of Penal Substitution, but their differences are strong enough to make them theological opponents because they hold competing ideas.
     
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The idea that there is merely a sin "debt" as opposed to a sin "penalty" is false. Sin is explicitly stated to be a violation or transgression of the Law and death is the legal consequence for violating law and is thus the earned penalty. A mere look at the Levitical laws and the court processes in Israel proves this clearly. What you DESERVE legally is what you EARN legally and that is the PENALTY of the law and it is this manner death is a wage.
     
    #54 The Biblicist, Nov 18, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2018
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I don’t believe either were questioning that God acted as a representative for His people.

    All Atonement theories, not just the Theory of Penal Substitution, attempt to show that divine justice is preserved in the process of redemption. But not all operate off the same basis or presuppositions when it comes to justice.

    The issue, however, is one of context. No one, prior to the Medieval period, provided the necessity that God prosecute justice against sin as a condition of divine forgiveness. Prior to this time Christians did present Christ as bearing the consequences of sin, of bearing our sin, of being our representative, and of dying on the cross for us. But the obstacle in to redeem man (prior to the eleventh century) was one standing in the way of divine victory, not divine forgiveness.

    In his commentary Romans, Abelard wrote “By the faith which we have concerning Christ love is increased in us, because, by virtue of the conviction that God in Christ has united our human nature to himself, and by suffering in that same nature has demonstrated to us that supreme love.” This resulted in our redemption being “that supreme love in us through the Passion of Christ”.

    One point that is present in Abelard’s writing is of Christ as our representative – the “last Adam”. Christ took on human nature, our nature, and our natures are united by faith in Christ.

    Anselm argued that “Every sin must be followed either by satisfaction or by punishment” (Cur Deus Homo). God is bound by order which prevents simple forgiveness. Man’s sin constituted an infinite dishonor which is contrary to this order. God cannot forgive man except this dishonor be reversed. Christ is our representative as he has taken on human nature and restored the honor that had been lost.
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do not believe that either rejected the idea that the wages of sin is death. The difference between the two are based more on the Incarnation - why Jesus came. Anselm believed Christ came to reverse the dishonor that resulted as the consequence of sin (and yes, his dishonor resulted in death). Abelard believed that Christ came as an embodiment of the love God had for mankind and that in Christ man is united to God through this love and thereby gaining victory over sin and death (death as the wages of sin).

    Neither of their views of justice fit your ideas here (your view did not exist at that time). But I think Anselm's closer. Anselm believed that Christ bore our punishment BUT he did not believe that this was the condition on which God forgives our sins. Compare this to Abelard, who writes from a Justinian concept of justice. When God forgives men it is because of the presence of His love in us through Christ. It is just because we are no longer what we once were. Your idea of divine justice would come along much later, but it seems to me that Anselm is closer.

    But to the point of the OP, neither views are really close to the Theory of Penal Substitution and both are poles apart from each other.
     
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I put no stock in any Roman Catholic theologians in any era between the 4th and 16th centuries. Just heretics in my opinion. I do not defend my view by traditions ("Church Father's" - meaning Roman Catholic Fathers). Many do on this forum and that is fine - they can have it, have it all.

    Nor will I fall into the trap that my position must be tied to the church fathers simply because I use their non-Biblical terms. They coined the terms because they saw those principles in scripture and any believer can glean the same principles in scripture and use those terms or comparable terms or just Biblical terms to defend the same truths. It does not take too much sense to come up with the word "substitution" for Greek terms that can mean "in behalf of " or "for." It does not take too much sense to see a lamb being used in the place of people with regard to a sin offering as their sins are confessed over its head but the lamb dies instead of the people. These things cry out for terms like "penal" and "subsitutionary".

    Christ came as a LEGAL representative to satisfy the demands of God's holiness which is given expression (but not its source) through the moral law (Rom. 3:21-22) but finds its ultimate reality in the Person and work of Christ as a substitutionary penal atonement in behalf His people. He is "the lamb" in the sense of taking the place on the divine altar of God's justice in behalf of his people and that act is a penal act as there is suffering as the direct legal consequence in direct connection with the Law of God.
     
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    God has been dishonored because the very moral nature of God has been offended and that offence occurs in attitudes and acts of disobedience to the appointed divine expression of his moral nature - the law of God as sin is the "transgression of the LAW" of God. The "dishonor" is in relationship to the LAW of God as the divinely appointed expression of His glory and therefore sin is "coming short of the GLORY of God." Man was made "upright" or in keeping with a moral standard and that moral standard is "the glory of God" which again, the divinely appointed manifestation is the Law of God.
     
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    BTW the Reformers saw that if they attempted to argue for the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works on the basis of tradition (church fathers) they could not adequately defend that Biblical truth and that is why they coined the phrase "sola scriptura" as they refused to defend the Bible by tradition. I refuse to enter into Roman Catholic Traditions to support or defend Biblical truths.
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The reason I question your claim is that your ideas of divine justice did not exist apart from the Catholic church. But that's neither here nor there (much like your post).

    The reason I say that Anselm (who is the closer of the two to Penal Substitution Theory) does not hold the view is because he, while viewing Jesus as bearing our punishment, did not view this bearing of our punishment as redemptive. What Anselm viewed was God restoring to Himself, through Christ, the honor that had been lost through the sin of man. This is not Penal Substitution Theory.

    Abelard, on the other hand, comes from a Justinian concept of justice. What makes us righteous is not the exercise of punishment (retributive justice) but rather the presence of God’s love in us. This is not Penal Substitution Theory.

    The problem with calling every theory "Penal Substitution Theory" is that it spreads the Theory of Penal Substitution too thin and makes it meaningless. All theories deal with penal and substitution themes. But when we start saying "Moral Influence Theory is Penal Substitution Theory", and "Anselm's Satisfaction Theory" is Penal Substitution Theory, and "Recapitulation" is Penal Substitution Theory, and "Christus Victor Theory" is Penal Substitution Theory then each of those other theories have meaning while Penal Substitution Theory becomes nothing but a collection of competing ideas.

    How do you think that Anselm and Abelard compare to each other? What do you think of their ideas of "sin"? What of "debt"? How do they stand in terms of the Theory of Penal Substitution?
     
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