Deception and OSAS

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I cannot help but be puzzled as to the doctrines held by many, in relationship to a heart of caring and compassion a believer is supposed to have for the lost. I do not believe I can ever remember of anyone that denies that one can believe they are saved and yet be lost in the end. Even those that claim OSAS are quick to remark that IF one does not make it in, they were simply not saved in the first place.

Now this is not a matter of mere conjecture or possibility for Scripture is clear that ‘many’ shall be of that number of deceived. Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Now if in fact they believe they are saved, they would of necessity believe that at some point in time they had came to faith. With the constant drumbeat of OSAS or eternal security being proclaimed from the pulpits across this nation and others, telling them that their actions are in effect divorced from their faith and that nothing they could ever do can separate them from God, how is such a message not bolstering the false beliefs of the ‘many’ deceived Christ speaks of? Does one honestly believe that if they would stand before a Holy God and try to make a case for their entrance into the Kingdom, do you believe for a minute that if asked in this present world if they have ever been saved that they would clearly attest to the fact that they have believed and are saved? I think not. If they would try to convice God, why would they not try and convince man of the same?

If we honestly love those that are deceived as to their standing before God, telling them that they need to believe is simply meaningless. They believe they have done that or they would not be deceived, now would they? You cannot tell them they need to examine their belief, for to do so smacks in the face of the dogma of OSAS and such questioning would certainly run counter to the idea that one needs to examine their works, for remember, it is faith apart from works, work s playing no part in their salvation, or so we are told.

So tell me, those that believe in OSAS and eternal security based upon one act of faith, what are you doing or what can you do to wake those that are now deceived out of their slumber before it is too late? If you love them you will do something to awaken them while there is yet time, will you not? What will you share with them? What truth will you share that will unsettle them from their deception? Is it not true that many of the deceived may well be within the ranks of the OSAS crowd? How can you, and what truth will you use to, awaken them when they are steeped in the OSAS dogma?

Could ones desire to bolster the assurance of another’s salvation by the teaching of the doctrine of OSAS be in the end found to be the catalyst for the deception of the ‘many’ that will be deceived according to Scripture? Why could not the notion of OSAS be a possible source of your deception in the end? The deceived believe now they are OK and so do we. Everyone seems to speak often of ‘knowing’ they are saved. How can we be certain and know that we are not of the number that in the end will find they have been of the 'many' deceived?

 

[Jedi Knight]

Jesus said I NEVER KNEW YOU.....not I once knew you and you fell away. I find your lack of respect for our beloved "Eternal Security" doctrine disturbing.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: Jesus said I NEVER KNEW YOU.....not I once knew you and you fell away.

HP: The point is that they were deceived into thinking they were saved.

 

[Jedi Knight]

HP: The point is that they were deceived into thinking they were saved.

I believe Judas was the example here...and those like him.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: I believe Judas was the example here...and those like him.

HP: There is not the slightest notion the ‘many’ spoken of betrayed Jesus or did anything that one could pinpoint as being horrible. Quite to the contrary. They seemed to be set on doing good. How many devils have we cast out? Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

They sound to me like good leader prospects for about any church. Judas ended up a far cry from the picture painted by those God says were deceived, to me that is.

If we accepted your premise, and accept the premise of the deceived in Scripture, with Judas holding to OSAS, what would have you shared with him to convince him of his need to re-examine his life.

I tell you what, You play the loving concerned fellow disciple and I will play Judas. Share with me the gospel from the OSAS perspective while there is still time for me to change my mind and be converted to the truth.

 

[Jim1999]

A dialogue that should be in some people's bibles:

I am sorry, says God, when I gave you eternal life upon your day of salvation, My foreknowledge was in the shop for repairs, so I couldn't tell how you would behave down the road. Had I known, then, what I know now, I would have said, Believe on Jesus and I will save you for the moment, but no guarantees. This isn't Walmart. There are conditions. I forgot to mention them at the outset, but this is a developing religion. I will change as I fancy.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Jedi Knight]

Even those who were around Judas never caught on,but he never fooled the Master. Jesus never pulled Judas aside to reason with him in his future betrayal,instead He simply said"what you must do do quickly". The Pharisees were offended by Jesus so the Lord told the disciples"let them alone". Peter was going do deny the Master and Jesus told him"I prayed for you". We can warn people to be serious but ultimately its in Gods hands not ours. The Lord knows those who are His. The wheat will have tares around and he said wait till the end and then separate them. We cannot always tell who's real and who's a make believer,but it's not our job to make converts....rather disciples.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jim, how about answering some of the questions I had in the OP? Tell us how you would warn those that might indeed find themselves to be of the deceived, or do you believe God created them for the deception they end up in and it would be less than worthless to try and alter the predestined plan of God upon their life?

 

[canadyjd]

I cannot help but be puzzled as to the doctrines held by many, in relationship to a heart of caring and compassion a believer is supposed to have for the lost.....With the constant drumbeat of OSAS or eternal security being proclaimed from the pulpits across this nation and others, telling them that their actions are in effect divorced from their faith and that nothing they could ever do can separate them from God....

First, it is scripture that tells us that believers cannot be separated from God. Second, I believe you are not being accurate in saying that those who teach eternal security tell people their actions are divorced from their faith.

.....You cannot tell them they need to examine their belief, for to do so smacks in the face of the dogma of OSAS and such questioning would certainly run counter to the idea that one needs to examine their works, for remember, it is faith apart from works, work s playing no part in their salvation, or so we are told.....

Scripture tells us we should examine ourselves and our faith. Scripture also tells us that works play no part in salvation, but that good works are the expected result of salvation which always produces a transformed life.

So tell me, those that believe in OSAS and eternal security based upon one act of faith,...

I believe in eternal security based on one act of God, which resulted in faith and will result in salvation.

...what are you doing or what can you do to wake those that are now deceived out of their slumber before it is too late?

I repeat scripture and tell them to examine themselves. I tell them that, although I am not the salvation police and cannot see whether Holy Spirit indwells them or not, I can make the observation that their behavior is inconsistent with the expectations of a transformed life which is always demonstrated in scripture.

Is it not true that many of the deceived may well be within the ranks of the OSAS crowd?

Perhaps. There is probably a whole lot within the "Salvation is up to me" crowd as well.

As a matter of fact, it is the decieved ones you mentioned above that proclaim their works to Christ in an attempt to justify themselves before the Lord. Perhaps all the decieved are in the "salvation is up to me" crowd.

Everyone seems to speak often of ‘knowing’ they are saved. How can we be certain and know that we are not of the number that in the end will find they have been of the 'many' deceived?

Because Holy Spirit indwells and testifies with my spirit that I am a child of God.

peace to youraying:

 

[Jedi Knight]

HP"Everyone seems to speak often of ‘knowing’ they are saved. How can we be certain and know that we are not of the number that in the end will find they have been of the 'many' deceived?" If your not sure Heavenly ...you need to ask God to show you. If your trusting in your behavior for holding on to salvation you are mistaken. Its the blood of Jesus that atones for the soul and his spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Canadyjd: First, it is scripture that tells us that believers cannot be separated from God.

HP: It also warns clearly that believers can make shipwreck of their faith, can do despite the grace that has been bestowed on them, and to take heed: Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Can: Second, I believe you are not being accurate in saying that those who teach eternal security tell people their actions are divorced from their faith.

HP: Here is your own statement that speaks directly top my comment:

Canadyid: Scripture also tells us that works play no part in salvation,….”

It matters not what you added after that for you already made a definitive statement. Works are clearly, divorced from salvation. Oh it my be nice if you do them, and you may miss some rewards if you do not, but again, works have nothing to do with your salvation, not in gaining it and not in keeping it.

I have heard such remarks so many times trust me, I am not misrepresenting the clear statement of many, even of those on this board yourself included. If works are nor divorced from salvation, tell what work in your estimation is needed to gain salvation or keep it. I will be careful to hear you out.
Quote:
HP: .....You cannot tell them they need to examine their belief, for to do so smacks in the face of the dogma of OSAS and such questioning would certainly run counter to the idea that one needs to examine their works, for remember, it is faith apart from works, work s playing no part in their salvation, or so we are told.....

Can: Scripture tells us we should examine ourselves and our faith. Scripture also tells us that works play no part in salvation, but that good works are the expected result of salvation which always produces a transformed life.

HP: Let’s be totally honest Can. We are told by at least one moderator on this list, one that even denies any and all Calvinistic leanings, that all men are liars and it is impossible to live without sin. We constantly hear the drumbeat that nothing can separate you from God and once a son always a son and that no sin as a believer can separate you from God. Go ahead, Can, show us where they are in error. Draw the line in the sand between sinner and saint. I wish someone would do it in a consistent fashion without all the double talk.
Quote:
DHK: So tell me, those that believe in OSAS and eternal security based upon one act of faith,...

Can: I believe in eternal security based on one act of God, which resulted in faith and will result in salvation.

HP: I clearly felt from what you have stated that you would take that position.
Quote:
HP: ...what are you doing or what can you do to wake those that are now deceived out of their slumber before it is too late?

Can: I repeat scripture and tell them to examine themselves. I tell them that, although I am not the salvation police and cannot see whether Holy Spirit indwells them or not, I can make the observation that their behavior is inconsistent with the expectations of a transformed life which is always demonstrated in scripture.

HP: I find absolutely no fault with that advice. Preach on!
Quote:
HP: Is it not true that many of the deceived may well be within the ranks of the OSAS crowd?

Can: Perhaps. There is probably a whole lot within the "Salvation is up to me" crowd as well.

HP: What do you mean by that? I would say that we certainly are not saved for th eskae of anything we have, will or can do, yet neither will any man be saved apart from fulfilling the conditions God said without which no man shall be saved. Is that what you are calling a ‘Salvation is up to me” position?

I would agree that the deceived will most likely come from more than one theological background for certain.

Can: As a matter of fact, it is the deceived ones you mentioned above that proclaim their works to Christ in an attempt to justify themselves before the Lord. Perhaps all the deceived are in the "salvation is up to me" crowd.

HP: Could the possibility exist you might possibly have a false impression about the crowd you are calling “salvation is up to me?”
Quote:
HP: Everyone seems to speak often of ‘knowing’ they are saved. How can we be certain and know that we are not of the number that in the end will find they have been of the 'many' deceived?

Can: Because Holy Spirit indwells and testifies with my spirit that I am a child of God.

HP: Agreed, but how does He tell you and how do we test the spirits to make certain the Spirit we believe is the Holy Spirit is in reality His? I believe God grants to us a clear means of testing the spirits. It will always be in conjunction with a clear conscience before God and before man. 1Jo 3:19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 ¶ For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: HP"Everyone seems to speak often of ‘knowing’ they are saved. How can we be certain and know that we are not of the number that in the end will find they have been of the 'many' deceived?"

HP: I believe I offered the advice from Scripture that answers that question in my last post. 1John 3:18-24

 

[Jedi Knight]

Heavenly the real question for you is are you born of God? Do you know if Christ is in you? If anyone has not the spirit he is not His. This is a real supernatural birth and there are birthmarks if you will to know you are born from above. If you feel you might be one of the deceived....ask God to show you. There is no need for a child of God to live in uncertainty about their destination.

 

[Allan]

HP: The point is that they were deceived into thinking they were saved.

Actaully it is very much the point. The Greek here is a double negetive, meaning that I never, no not ever, known you. IOW- Me and you never had a relationship - ever.

So here we have Jesus stating there was never a relationship between them. This sets the stage for what comes next..

Remember what Jesus states about their supposed 'work' for Him - "depart from me you who work lawlessness." They were declaring to God what they did or were doing hoping of earning the right to be in heaven.

This was Jesus speaking to the Jews who had come to distort the truth that salvation was dependant upon works, which in fact it is not. Good works are the result of one being saved and thus to even have good works they were dependant upon one being saved.

Good works do not result IN salvation nor help to bring a person TO salvation. Good works are the manifestion of one who is saved and in a relationship with God who has become that persons 'Father' (Mat 5:16).


Most people contending for the possibility of loosing ones salvation many times forget one crucial aspect that needs be remembered. We are not only saved but we are also 'changed' so that the natural man is no longer the same as it used to be. Old things are passed away (no more) all things have become new (without taint or blemish). Thus we will still struggle with the flesh but not the spirit (the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak) and we still much choose what we shall do at various times regarding obedience or disobedience. However just because we struggle as Gods children still clothed in corrupt flesh, we can not anymore loose our family status anymore than you can to your earthly parents. The fact is, if you are family, you will always be family. And even if you "could" wish to seperate yourself from God, God has promised to never seperate Himself from you (I will never leave you nor forsake you). God can not deny His own word and to 'ever' leave you (to turn away for something done) or to ever forsake you (to deny you as His own) immediately breaks His word and establishes God as a liar.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Jesus said I NEVER KNEW YOU.....not I once knew you and you fell away. I find your lack of respect for our beloved "Eternal Security" doctrine disturbing.

I was just reading through this thread and found this post. Together with your Avatar I could almost hear the mechanical breathing of Darth Vadar in the first movie on the Death Star when replying to Admiral Motti in this discourse:

Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
Admiral Motti: Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerous ways, Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes, or given you clairvoyance enough to find the rebels' hidden fortress...
[Vader makes a pinching motion and Motti starts choking]
Darth Vader: I find your lack of faith disturbing.

I couldn't help but :laugh:

 

[Jedi Knight]

I was just reading through this thread and found this post. Together with your Avatar I could almost hear the mechanical breathing of Darth Vadar in the first movie on the Death Star when replying to Admiral Motti in this discourse Darth Vader: I find your lack of faith disturbing.
I couldn't help but :laugh:

You caught that? The Force is strong with this one. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

The Perserverance & Preservation of the Saints is different than simply OSAS - which can lend itself (at least in an argument) to a "fire insurance" type of salvation.

The quote below is from www.apuritansmind.com and sums up the differences ---
"Perseverance of the Saints does not mean "once saved always saved". This corruption of the doctrine has been popular in recent years, but has never been a true representation of the doctrine. "Once saved always saved" is more keenly given the name "Perseverance of the sinner" instead of "the saint". For it teaches that man can be saved by Christ and then sin habitually, do whatever he wants, and then still "persevere to the end". Perseverance of the saints does not teach this. Perseverance of the saints teaches that once God has renewed the heart of a sinner through the application of the redemption wrought by Christ upon the cross, he will continue to be saved and show forth the fruits of that salvation. The sinner perseveres because of Christ, but he continually shows himself as one who has been changed by Christ. God has saved the individual and will sanctify him until the end when he is ultimately glorified, and in heaven. It does not mean man has a license to sin. Those who think they have a license to sin are not changed and saved by grace. They are still in sin. Those who are saved by grace and changed, desire to show forth the fruits of that salvation. God motions the heart to good work, and continues that good work to the end."

Also, the SBC Faith & Message sums this up quite well:
"All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation."

 

[Revmitchell]

telling them that their actions are in effect divorced from their faith and that nothing they could ever do can separate them from God,

Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Pet 3:7 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

2 Pet 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

2 Pet 2:17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved

Luke 8:13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away

Matt 24:10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.

Heb 6:4-8 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

John 6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

2 John 1:9-11 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

Heb 10:26-29 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

 

[Revmitchell]

2 Pet 3:7 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

2 Pet 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

2 Pet 2:17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved

Luke 8:13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away

Matt 24:10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.

Heb 6:4-8 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

John 6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

2 John 1:9-11 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

Heb 10:26-29 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.