Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: No, but let me guess. Could he by any chance wear the same presupposition in front of his eyes as you do in front of yours?
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Deception and OSAS
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
- Start date
HP: No, but let me guess. Could he by any chance wear the same presupposition in front of his eyes as you do in front of yours?
If you want to believe you can fall from grace you might be right. I am concerned that the ones who trust in their behavior"works" do fall from grace because they trust in that more than Gods provision. Your looking at the fruit of salvation NOT the root of salvation. Fruit is a result of salvation...trusting in the blood of Jesus is the only way to have eternal salvation.
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It all depends on your view of salvation. If you are Arminian or (semi) Pelagian, then of course it makes sense that your salvation depends upon your faith and your continued faith.
However, the Scriptures teach that our salvation is a gift of God, by grace, a change of heart by the Holy Spirit. The Southern Baptist Faith & Message states it this way ----
"Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace."
The historic Baptist London Confession of Faith addresses the whole issue this way ----
"Although temporary believers, and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favour of God and state of salvation, which hope of theirs shall perish; yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.
This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope, but an infallible assurance of faith founded on the blood and righteousness of Christ revealed in the Gospel; and also upon the inward evidence of those graces of the Spirit unto which promises are made, and on the testimony of the Spirit of adoption, witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God; and, as a fruit thereof, keeping the heart both humble and holy.
This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it; yet being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of means, attain thereunto: and therefore it is the duty of every one to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; -so far is it from inclining men to looseness.
True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light, yet are they never destitute of the seed of God and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived, and by the which, in the meantime, they are preserved from utter despair."
That's why we can sing "Blessed Assurance" not "Blessed I sure hope so"
However, the Scriptures teach that our salvation is a gift of God, by grace, a change of heart by the Holy Spirit. The Southern Baptist Faith & Message states it this way ----
"Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace."
The historic Baptist London Confession of Faith addresses the whole issue this way ----
"Although temporary believers, and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favour of God and state of salvation, which hope of theirs shall perish; yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.
This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope, but an infallible assurance of faith founded on the blood and righteousness of Christ revealed in the Gospel; and also upon the inward evidence of those graces of the Spirit unto which promises are made, and on the testimony of the Spirit of adoption, witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God; and, as a fruit thereof, keeping the heart both humble and holy.
This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it; yet being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of means, attain thereunto: and therefore it is the duty of every one to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; -so far is it from inclining men to looseness.
True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light, yet are they never destitute of the seed of God and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived, and by the which, in the meantime, they are preserved from utter despair."
That's why we can sing "Blessed Assurance" not "Blessed I sure hope so"
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: OK Jedi, tell us about the root that you seem to believe we are missing. What do you see when you look at Him?
The blood of Jesus as a lamb that TAKES AWAY the sin.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by FriendofSpurgeon http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1414299#post1414299
That's why we can sing "Blessed Assurance" not "Blessed I sure hope so"
HP: That indeed is a great song. I not only sing it, I believe it. It is not the assurance of salvation I see as unscriptural, it is the false notion that assurance and absolute knowledge are synonymous.
Our assurance is in the form of hope, unless you simply dismiss the many references to the ‘hope’ of our salvation. It is also by faith, as opposed to absolute knowledge. Where the rub comes is those that hold to faith and hope of salvation but whose works are at antipodes with that hope, or those that feel that ones works can be at antipodes with their hope, with no effect upon their eternal standing before God.
There is a vast distinction between a ‘hope so salvation’ and a salvation held and realized by hope. A ‘hope so’ salvation has no evidence to support their ‘hope’ while others in possession of certain hope do have clear evidence that their hope is well founded and trustworthy. A good study of the Apostle James will clarify the distinction between a hope so salvation and a salvation held by hope.
Far better men than myself have misaligned for their hope, so I am in great company. Ac 26:7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.”
Ps 38:15 For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God.
Ps 43:5 Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? HOPE IN GOD: for I shall yet praise him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God.
Ro 5:5 And HOPE maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Originally Posted by FriendofSpurgeon http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1414299#post1414299
That's why we can sing "Blessed Assurance" not "Blessed I sure hope so"
HP: That indeed is a great song. I not only sing it, I believe it. It is not the assurance of salvation I see as unscriptural, it is the false notion that assurance and absolute knowledge are synonymous.
Our assurance is in the form of hope, unless you simply dismiss the many references to the ‘hope’ of our salvation. It is also by faith, as opposed to absolute knowledge. Where the rub comes is those that hold to faith and hope of salvation but whose works are at antipodes with that hope, or those that feel that ones works can be at antipodes with their hope, with no effect upon their eternal standing before God.
There is a vast distinction between a ‘hope so salvation’ and a salvation held and realized by hope. A ‘hope so’ salvation has no evidence to support their ‘hope’ while others in possession of certain hope do have clear evidence that their hope is well founded and trustworthy. A good study of the Apostle James will clarify the distinction between a hope so salvation and a salvation held by hope.
Far better men than myself have misaligned for their hope, so I am in great company. Ac 26:7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.”
Ps 38:15 For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God.
Ps 43:5 Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? HOPE IN GOD: for I shall yet praise him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God.
Ro 5:5 And HOPE maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
I John 5:13 is very clear: "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life."
It is not a "I hope that I have eternal life" but there is a security to our hope. We KNOW that we have eternal life. No question about it.
It is not a "I hope that I have eternal life" but there is a security to our hope. We KNOW that we have eternal life. No question about it.
Exactly, is what we have hope for to conquer death. Thats why David could say"O death were is your sting?" Because eternal life stops the power of death. When Jesus said Everlasting fire....do you doubt that it would be anything less? Everlasting Life is the opposite received as a free gift.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Then why did Paul strive. And near the end he exults in that he kept the faith to the very end? Could it be that possibly that the assurance is that indeed if you do the father's will his promises are faithful its assured so that you're not waisting your time. For instance let me use Paul's example of a race. To get my meaning across better lets say its the 100 meter dash. your at the starting point and .... Bang! The gun goes off. Now Paul says he runs the race with out looking back and keeps his mind focused on the goal until he reaches the end and recieves the prize. But what if you don't run at all? what if you never cross the finish line? Do you recieve the prize that his awaiting and secure for you? You can be assured that if you actually run the race you will receive your reward but if you start and stop what prize is there for you?
If you don't run at all, you're not in the race. If you never cross the finish line, you're not done with the race.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Exactly.........!
Every believer is in the race.
One might use the example of the thief on the cross who never had much of a chance to "run," but he was still "in the race." He just didn't get very far. However, seeing that his words are recorded for all eternity in God's Word, and have directed many to the Savior, I would say that he has greater reward than time will ever tell.
If you are a true believer you will finish the race; you will persevere; you will overcome; you will not fail.
"Whosoever is born of God has overcome the world. And this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith." (I John 5:4)
--Once we were saved, we overcame by the blood of the lamb.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."
As far as salvation is concerned I was done the race before I ever started.
As far as the practical Christian life is concerned there are rewards to win on the way, and there are rewards that may be lost as well. Lay your treasure up in heaven where thieves cannot steal, and moth and rust cannot corrupt.
Salvation is so simple but "Loss of salvation" folks make it out to be Algebra.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Repent, believe, and continue in obedience. Some Algebra.
Your not trusting in Gods finished work....your too focused on your finishing. Totally backwards....thats not good Algebra.Repent, believe, and continue in obedience. Some Algebra.
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You bet but let us understand just what defines 'hope'.Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Hope is the expectation of something. And to better understand this we must understand where that expection comes from and thus the extent to which we can 'hope'.
If I tell you that I will be at your house this Sunday at 2pm to do something for you (and let us say I am both good friends with you and know where you live
).Then you have a hope or an expectation of my promise to do something. Now the only problem with this is that being a man my promise is only as good as my ability to fulfill it. Therefore my promise is contengent upon me and my power. Yet, I can not prevent myself from being hit by a car on the way over nor that I wont die nor any number of things that could potentially prevent me from fulfilling my promise. Therefore your hope or expectation of my promise is never guaranteed because it is founded upon me. This is why most people today use the wish as being synonamous with hope.
Therefore hope or expection is completely depenant upon the one who makes that promise.
Now let us take man out of the equation and replace him with God making the promise. God is faithful and able to control all circumstance and powerful in all things. If He says He will do something then based upon His character and nature and past record we can be assured that He will fulfill His promise. Therefore with God the term wish or wishful thinking can not be equated with the term Hope (as we understand it naturally) since His promises are guaranteed and thus our 'hope' is truely the expecation of one who knows without question tbat what was said will be done, period. Much like a child who believes you when you tell them that you will take them somewhere on a certain day. When that day comes they 'expect' you to do what you say and they are excited and overjoyed that you will keep your promise.
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Trusting God is an act of the will as well. I do not trust in my abilities. My trust is in God. I am still a free moral agent and can yield to sin and selfishness if I do not make a conscience effort to exercise myself to align my will with the help proffered me by the Holy Spirit. That is not trusting in my abilities.
You believe in maintaing salvation by works...cut and dry. I guess you can boast!
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Allan, you certainly have a lot of good things to say, and I mean that. How is your understanding of the little word 'if?'
Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Mt 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Mt 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
…just to list a few conditional passages.
Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Mt 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Mt 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
…just to list a few conditional passages.
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