Annsni: Thank you for the Kudo's. Hope you also noticed my retraction where I mistakenly said we aren't His sheep?
:wavey:
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Deception and OSAS
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
- Start date
Annsni: Thank you for the Kudo's. Hope you also noticed my retraction where I mistakenly said we aren't His sheep?
:wavey:
But we are dealing with some who believe you can loose it ......so I didn't wana leave room for doubt!:laugh: Context is King when reading scriptures.:wavey:Yep.Context is important so I knew what you were saying. :godisgood:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
1. Shipwreck of Faith. 1Tim 1:19
2. Fallen From Grace - severed from Christ Gal 5:4
3. Forgiveness revoked - Matt 18
4. Removed from Christ and burned John 15
5. Removed from Christ (Rom 11) but "he is able to graft them in again IF they do not continue in unbelief" Romans 11:23
An then of course - even Adam - Created perfect did not need to be "uncreated" to fall and become "lost".
The "first you must be uncreated to fall" argument does not work in scripture.
Take it up with Paul.
in Christ,
Bob
I did and after consulting with Paul I learned that Paul agrees with OSAS. As does John and Matthew.
Point 5 you make does not harmonize with Hebrews 6. If you believe falling from grace, severed from Christ, shipwrecking your faith and forgiveness revoked are examples of a once saved person losing their salvation then according to Hebrews 6 there is no such thing as grafting them in "again". Your exgesis is at fault at some point, you must figure out where and make the necessary corrections.
Here I was hoping that maybe you saw the light, abandoned EGW's faulty theology, and was re-studying God's word with a new flock of Christians since you have been gone for so long. I have and do pray for you! :thumbs:
:jesus:
I would say 1 John has a lot of tests for someone to know they have indeed been regenerated.
Good works cannot prove regeneration, lost people do good works, some more than the saved.
Lost people can make very good neighbors as well.
Working to control the sin nature is something you find lost people doing as well because we all, both saved and lost, have a sin nature that must be controled lest we face society's consequences.
Here is the only test to know if you have been saved....."The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:" (Ro 8:16)
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (Jo 10:27)
It is what God has done for you, placing His eternal seal within you.
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph 4:30)
:jesus:
I am personally an utter and complete failure to walk in the way of Christ and live in any way that brings glory to our Lord Jesus Christ. I honestly don't know anything about whether we are 'Once-Saved, Always-Saved' or if we fall away from a state of grace that would insure our membership in the House of God. I do firmly believe that if I am saved it is because of the Grace of God and His Mercy and Compassion on a lowly and undeserving sinner that I am.
To argue that one is 'saved or not saved' betrays what I fear to be an expectation of worthiness I simply can't recognize in my own walk of faith. I am simply too much of a failure to have any hope in salvation but for the Mercy of God. If God is truly a Righteous God and weights us all accordingly, who among us would stand? Not I. We can each argue that God is Righteous and Holy but done of us truly understands what that actually means because we are so utterly lacking in such virtues as to recognize them with any clarity.
We each can ponder our own fate and hope for the Mercy of God but If God were to judge me, I would be found guilty.
To argue that one is 'saved or not saved' betrays what I fear to be an expectation of worthiness I simply can't recognize in my own walk of faith. I am simply too much of a failure to have any hope in salvation but for the Mercy of God. If God is truly a Righteous God and weights us all accordingly, who among us would stand? Not I. We can each argue that God is Righteous and Holy but done of us truly understands what that actually means because we are so utterly lacking in such virtues as to recognize them with any clarity.
We each can ponder our own fate and hope for the Mercy of God but If God were to judge me, I would be found guilty.
"IF" you are saved dear brother?
It sounds to me that you are a babe in Christ and that is quite ok, we all begin as babes in Christ, however, we are called upon by the word of Christ to mature in Christ.
As you learn and grow in Christ there will be no more doubts "if" you are saved. You will develope a one on one relationship with Jesus through the Spirit which God has placed inside you at regeneration (the moment you called on Jesus to save you) "born again". The Spirit testifies to your spirit that you are indeed "saved" (Ro 8)
You speak of "worthiness". No one's works makes them worthy of salvation, however, we are called to walk as Jesus walked (1 John) so we can be found "worthy" of being a child of God. Once God saves us (regenerates us) we are then called to walk a life worthy of a Christian which the scriptures teaches us that it is expected of us and teaches us how we ought to behave.
"If God were to judge you"? ........... Again, Romans 8, there is NO CONDEMNATION for those who are IN CHRIST JESUS, WHO WALK AFTER THE SPIRIT (REGENERATION).
I do not ponder my fate, I know it! "Saved"
I do not hope for God's mercy, I have it! "In Christ"
I do not fear God's wrath, I have been made alive in Christ! "Born again"
I stand with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ and cannot be found guilty!
Praise Him!
:jesus:
So you equate spiritual maturity with presumption and positive thinking?
I hope that works for you.
It is as if some believe there are hundreds of angels running around with a pencil and eraser saying" Oh look! he sinned take his name out of the book of life!" and Oh look! he repented put it back in".:BangHead:
Seriously....
I need not presume anything. I learn and grow in Christ from the teachings of the scriptures along with the Holy Spirit.
As one grows in the knowledge of Christ a persuasion is formed, a deeper and stronger faith, a deeper and stronger relationship with God.
Have you reached this persuasion spoken of in the Holy Scriptures?
2Ti 1:12For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Hbr 11:13¶(Speaking of past saints) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Persuaded and presumptious are two different things. Mature Christians do not presume God will save them but rather are persuaded God has saved them. And not because of any works of righteousness which we have done, but because of the working of Jesus Christ within the spirit (regeneration unto maturity).
:jesus:
Abraham was a persuaded man. No presumptions needed.
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
"Fully" persuaded!! "Strong" in faith!! "Giving glory to God" !!
Are you fully persuaded in Christ alone? Imputed righteousness? Or are you not quite sure, maybe you feel you might fail (sin) and God will not keep His promisses. Maturity brings peace and one becomes persuaded that no matter what weeknesses cause us to fail God, God will not fail us!
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As we grow in Christ, fear of "losing salvation" will fade away and persuasion of God's promisses will fully consume our walk and talk in Christ! Praise Him!
Press towards the high calling of God brother! I am persuaded God will not fail you! :thumbsup:
:jesus:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
"Fully" persuaded!! "Strong" in faith!! "Giving glory to God" !!
Are you fully persuaded in Christ alone? Imputed righteousness? Or are you not quite sure, maybe you feel you might fail (sin) and God will not keep His promisses. Maturity brings peace and one becomes persuaded that no matter what weeknesses cause us to fail God, God will not fail us!
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As we grow in Christ, fear of "losing salvation" will fade away and persuasion of God's promisses will fully consume our walk and talk in Christ! Praise Him!
Press towards the high calling of God brother! I am persuaded God will not fail you! :thumbsup:
:jesus:
I don't doubt God, nor His Promises but I do not parade my salvation here or anywhere. I believe that I see my own Faith in my works as St. James was so clear to point out. When I backslide and find myself living a life in a carnal way I am not convinced that my Faith is one that saves. I see little in my works that convinces me that I am one of the elect. I don't believe that I am saved by my works but when my works are not present in my daily life I question whether I ever had Faith at all which is the whole point of this thread. Whether I am one of the elect or not, I am not convinced that my walk of faith is one that is particularly Faithful nor Fruitful.
But this is double speak my brother. You say that your works convince you of your saving faith either way, but then you say that you don't believe your works save you.
Its like saying to yourself "I helped a little ol lady cross the street today, I feel saved today" :love2:
I, on the other hand, feel unworthy of grace every moment of every day. All my "good" works I give God the glory and credit for because the Holy Spirit He gave me is the source of those good works. I know I am saved because of the Spirit He gave me (Ro 8). The works come naturally as I mature in Christ because I was created unto good works which God has for ordained that I should walk in them (Ehp 2). I am His workmanship!
So I do boast in the salvation of God! For He has done a good work in me. Not I, but He!
:godisgood:
No "buts" brother. Either you don't doubt God's promisses or you do. The scriptures teaches that once born of God you have eternal life. Works play no part in this promise. Works will be judged at the judgment seat of Christ for all believers. All will suffer some loss, yet he himself shall be saved!
Praise Him! :jesus:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In the Matt 18 model of forgiveness revoked Jesus says of God "I forgave you ALL that debt" but then returns the debt to be "paid in full" by the one who failed to show forgiveness to others.
Jesus then gives the lesson of his own parable of Matt 18 saying "SO shall my Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive..."
In John 15 the same example - of branches IN CHRIST being removed and thrown into the fire.
in Romans 11 the same example - branches IN Christ being removed and Christ's argument there is the same "HE is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in unbelief".
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by BobRyan
1. Shipwreck of Faith. 1Tim 1:19
2. Fallen From Grace - severed from Christ Gal 5:4
3. Forgiveness revoked - Matt 18
4. Removed from Christ and burned John 15
5. Removed from Christ (Rom 11) but "he is able to graft them in again IF they do not continue in unbelief" Romans 11:23
An then of course - even Adam - Created perfect did not need to be "uncreated" to fall and become "lost".
The "first you must be uncreated to fall" argument does not work in scripture.
Take it up with Paul.
Well then I must have missed a key point on OSAS if OSAS means you can have all of your forgiveness revoked and so must go to the lake of fire and suffer your own second-death payment for the "wages of sin" Rom 6:23.
I must have mised a key point in OSAS if OSAS means that you can be "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" because I always thought that Christ was the ONLY way of salvation. If OSAS has another way to get you in - I have not heard of it.
Steaver said:
Point 5 comes from Romans 11 not Hebrews 6. In the Romans 11 kind of "saved-then-lost" you can be grafted in again "if you do not continue in unbelief".
In the Hebrew 6 kind of saved-then-lost you can not. It is the unpardonable sin of Matt 12 and 1John 5 in that case.
But both kinds of saved-then-lost will do for negating OSAS.
Indeed I do because the "Lost state" is never defined as "having been fully forgiven" nor as "joined to Christ" nor as "under Grace".
In fact in Matt 12 there is "unpardonable sin" as we also see in 1John 5. So I admit that in addition to the saved-then-lost of Romans 11 there is also the saved-then-lost of Heb 6 from which there is no return.
Both of which refute OSAS BTW.
Well number 1 - thanks for the prayers.
But number 2 - in order for me to reconsider my current view - I have to see a good Bible argument that exposes some flaw in my faith and doctrine - a flaw that holds up to close Bible-based inconvenient-detail review.:jesus:
Number three - you are right about one thing -- it would take something pretty much earth shaking to have gotten me to stop posting here for a while.
in Christ,
Bob