Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Yet another baseless remark without the least shred of truth in it.....but it is a small thing to be judged as such by you.
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Deception and OSAS
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
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HP: Yet another baseless remark without the least shred of truth in it.....but it is a small thing to be judged as such by you.
I have no issue but will have to get back to you. My wife wants to play Yahtzee, it is family night but I will get back to you and explain each of those verses
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Thanks Allan. Just remember, you do not have to go over ever one. Have fun playing with your family!!
Your own conclusion about salvation is what you express ....always relying on your ability to hang on or you will fall from grace. Paul was addressing people that turned from grace to works to depend on for acceptance. Its funny how you say you don't trust your ability and turn around and say just that.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Understanding clearly the conditions expressed in Scripture as to our salvation in no way reduced to simply ones ‘own conclusion.’ It is the truth of Scripture.
Where have I ever expressed the notion that you inject as to be “always relying on your ability to hang on?” Yet another paper duck without the least shred of truth in it. Without the help of the Lord, no one will act in a manner pleasing to God. The most consistent individuals I know rely on the Holy Spirit moment by moment to influence them to proper behavior. That is not to say that God forces their will, or that God coerces their will to act against its formed intents. We are co-workers with God. God supplies the proper influences and we voluntarily yield our wills in accordance to His influences.
Here is some sound advice from a wise man. 1Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
No one hangs on by their abilities alone, but neither will we be found in Christ in the last day apart from the continued exercise of the will and abilities afforded to us by God in voluntary obedience to His Word. God needs a perfect heart and a willing mind to complete His work in us.
HP "but neither will we be found in Christ in the last day apart from the continued exercise of the will and abilities afforded to us by God in voluntary obedience to His Word." As you say...your ability"will". You will NOT be found in Christ if you don't have Jesus in you NOW! which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Colossians 1:27
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HP if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever." I believe he was inviting Solomon into a relationship with God. Seek God while he may be found it echoed through out scriptures. Hell is filled with flaming evangelist that wish they didn't put off seeking God when there was an opportunity in this age"thus the warning to Solomon".
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: This post highlights the deception and or possible deception OSAS brings to the table. Here we have a verse that states, “but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.” Automatically such a verse is summarily dismissed as having anything to do with salvation by those holding to OSAS. Why? It could be seen as running contrary to the revered presupposition of OSAS if it was addressing a saved individual. Does the verse tell us that the one spoken to here was not saved or that such a one could not be saved who is being addressed? No, not at all. Such notions are simply injected into ones so-called interpretation, for to do otherwise it would do injury to the presupposition of OSAS.
Let me ask the reader. What forces such a limited interpretation of the text to only those yet to be saved? There is only one answer: shear conjecture in the form of an unsupported presupposition. So here we go round and round in the circular reasoning of OSAS, disregarding or begging the question as to the salvation of the individual, determining, WITHOUT PROOF OR EVIDENCE, that the one spoken to cannot be a saved individual due to a firmly entrenched yet unfounded presupposition.
Such a method of interpretation shows a callous disregard to any and all other clear possibilities, rejecting them off-hand without the slightest evidence of reason to do so by any proper rule or practice concerning sound biblical interpretation. Is it any wonder deception is so prevalent? This is done to any and ever verse that could possibly be seen as at antipodes with their presupposition of OSAS. So much for using sound reasoning or proper rules of interpretation to understand the truth of Scripture and it's import upon our lives. Simply dismiss offhand anything that could possibly be seem as disruptive to ones presuppositions.
Thanks for illustrating my point JK. :thumbsup:
Why???
Because it is a verse taken out of its context; that is why!
1 Chronicles 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
This is the Lord speaking to Solomon about the building of His house, not about eternal security. One has nothing to do with the other. You are making a giant leap of faith here. How many other Scriptures do you take out of context. There is a warning for that in 2Pet.3:16. Take heed.
This verse is directed to Solomon and to no one else. We do not know what would have happened if Solomon had forsaken the Lord in building of this Temple, because he obeyed the Lord in all that the Lord commanded him. The rest is speculation. Why the speculation? Have you not anything better to come up with?
HP :Thanks for illustrating my point JK." Sorry,but your not gonna change and I don't like scoffers of Perserverance of the Saints.
Well first we must determine whether the passage is refering to a 'positional' or 'relational' issue. Positional refers obviously to whether or not we are in a relationship with God. Are we in Christ and thus His child able to cry in truth, Abba/Father? In this one there is only two possibilities, you either are a child of God or you are not. But once a son you are a son always. If it is a true statement that my children are mine. Then you must also understand that I can never legally deny them as my own. My blood flows through them, my DNA is apart of them. Even if the law says they are no longer mine (under my care) they are STILL mine by nature. And if they are adopted even more so because you can not unadopt someone and never have been able to do so - specifically in the Roman culture from whence Paul used the phrase to illistrate the absoluteness of what has occured.
The other, relational, refers to our standing AS children. Such as in His favor (obedient) or out of favor (disobedient). However you must remember that positionally there is no removal, yet relationally there can be. One can be removed from favor, set aside, and even fall away through disobedience from a positive to a negitive or bad relationship with God the Father and thus not blessed but still continue as a son. You will find in the OT however something that some get confused with regarding the positional issue. In the OT there are two positional issue in view, and this must be understood. One is the position as Jew in relation to being God chosen people (Israel) in a general sense and also one specifically relating to them as a child of God or being saved. God gave conditional passages in relation to their identity as God's chosen people which as long as they were obedient as a people they were under His protection and blessing and if they as a people sin and walk away then God will cast them off, THIS general position relating NOT to their salvic position but their identity as God's chosen people.
This statement is not speaking about salvation (positional) but relational and THIS statement is actually not even a conditional statement but a declaration identifying believers or maybe a better expanation establishing a seperation of the listeners from the believers.
Again not positional but relational. The passage state that the one who isn't walking by faith (obedience) has pulled away in their relationship to God and His soul will have no pleasure in him (out of favor for disobedience). Nothing here states the person has lost his positional standing with God only his relational standing (like a child and father. If my child does his own thing my soul has no pleasure in him but if he through love obey me my soul will take great pleasure in him).
Again, this is not regarding one's position but is relational. God will honor your request to bring you into a right relationship with Him if you deny others that same relational mercy and grace you are seeking.
Again, relational not positional. If we, as His children, are obedient then should we not expect our father to favor and honor our petions of Him, in contrast to those who are disobedient.
This IS speaking positionally however Romans 8 is a contrast NOT between the saved and the saved but the saved and the lost. The lost live after, or better for the flesh.
This is not a conditional statement but another declaration of those who are saved because they do keep it in memory. If this was a conditional statement then if you ever for one moment was not keeping it in memory then you must, according to the condition, loose your salvation. Notice also that it is followed by 'unless you believed in vain' or better - unless your what you believe is empty or without meaning. (it's just words that have no real value)
The point being made is that the believer does what he does because he remembers what was done for him, unless what was done is meaningless then it doesn't matter.
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It appears you have left the debate and entered into berate.
By the way, since I do have a firm grasp of hermeneutics I'd like to ask just where the interpretation given was incorrect based upon it's proper rules?
Please, kindly illistrate this for me if you would.
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Hermeneutics and Heavenly Pilgrim point of views do not get along very well. :tongue3:
He cannot grasp Romans 8:16. Nor can he grasp just what the word "never" means which is found in several verses of scripture.
:jesus:
Why are ye puzzled brother? Do you see the word "never" in this passage? This means they were "never" saved. These folks wanted their good works to save them. They rejected the offer of regeneration.
Mental consent that Jesus is Lord does not save even though many believe that it will. I have many friends who will agree with me that Jesus is Lord, but they will not surrender their will to Jesus, inviting Him in. They like their self-control. They do not "know" Him. They do know "of" Him.
:jesus:
Let's talk about your presuppositions HP. You go on and on about "PROOF OR EVIDENCE" of salvation. Yet you hold the position that N
NE can know with 100% absolute certainty that they are saved. You hold the position that everyone who claims the name of Jesus Christ as Lord can be decieved and not really saved. "PROOF OR EVIDENCE" is meaningless in your own pov yet you continue to preach it is a must for salvation.You have been taken to the wood shed many times on this point HP yet you still dig your heels in and refuse to see your misguided logic. You yourself cannot say that you are 100% sure your are not decieved. If you cannot know for 100% sure then you have NOTHING more than a religion just like any other.
I KNOW. 100% for sure I am saved because of the Spirit God gave me. It is the only way one can know 100% they are saved. Anyone can do good deeds and good works. Not everyone has the Spirit of God dwelling in them that personally proves they are His. The scripture is clear, the Holy Spirit cannot/will not decieve people. This is how we know 100% if we are saved. (Romans 8) Have you examined yourself? Know ye not how Jesus Christ is in you? (2Cor 13)
:jesus:
We seem to be missing one very important description penned by Paul under God's inspiriation. "New Creature/Creation in Christ."
How in the world, does one who become a "new creature/creation" in Christ Jesus, become the old creature, and uncreated out from Christ" when they sin, or stray into wrong thinking, and actions biblically.
Right at the beginning of Romans 12, Paul clearly says that us believers must "renew" our minds, as this is the way to live out the new "identity" that God has given each believer upon salvation.
Lets take an example. You have a P.C. and the hard drive has become corrupted. You input information into it, and it gives you back results that don't jive with the input. It is corrupted.
Now you replace all the corrupted hardware, and input in new information that is not corrupted, i.e. new software, etc...
In a sense, Romans 12 right off tells the believer that if he/she doesn't immerse themselves in God's new corrupt-free software, that purges the old corrupted software, they will live a most miserable life as a Christian. There will be war between the flesh, and the "new nature" that God has miraculously bestowed within the soul of every true Christian.
Again, "How do you uncreate a new creature/creation?".
Once you were a caterpillar, but now your a butterfly. How does a butterfly become a caterpillar again.
How does a buried seed, that springs forth into a fruit producing plant, become a seed again?
Galatians 2:20 succinctly says that we have been(past tense) been crucified with Christ, and that now(present tense) we live a new live in Christ's crucified, buried, ressurrected, and "ascended in the heavenlies" life now, and forever.
Christ's life that has no beginning nor end, we enter into through our co-crucifixion, co-burial, co-ressurection, co-ascendency via the Holy Spirit(Spirit of Christ) taking permanent residence in our souls.
Now our battle is with the power of sin, that has access to our flesh(mind/emotions/will), but not our true identity.
The only fallen part of us are, our bodies.
Folks, it's the old programming from whence we were unsaved, that still indwells that grey matter up in the cranium. Romans 12 has the succinct answer for that situation. "Mind renewing" or replacing the old lies of life and existence, living with the absence of God, and His Lordship, and His empowering H.S.. to counsel us in the inner man.
When Paul said in Galatians 2:20 that he was crucified with Christ, he was not talking mystical, but factual. Though his physical earthly body still was the same, his/Paul's inner most being, human nature, that was formely dead to God, had been energized with the permanent, indwelling of God Spirit of God.
Even poor old Pharisee Nicodemus was baffled, and couldn't understand and thought that Jesus wanted him/Nicodemus to crawl back into his mother's womb and be born all over again. This birth was Spirtual in nature. This was not annihilation of our human soul, or person as we were born, but the renewing of via removal of that old nature via Galatians 2:20.
Those that use the NIV must understand that there is a very poor translation in the area of man's old nature versus the new nature. The King James and NASB are more accurate, and it is a profound weak area in the NIV translation to a translation that is otherwise excellent. The NIV incorrectly calls the "Flesh"(KJ,NASB), the "sinful nature"(NIV).
This creates quite a distinction folks! Is it the flesh(KJ,NASB), that is our old unredeemed body that the power of sin has access to, that creates the havoc in our minds, wills, and emotions that wages war against the indwelling H.S. or is it the "sinful nature"(NIV) that communicates that we are dualistic, and Schizophrenic, in nature, both having a "New Nature" and "Old Nature" living simultaneously within our souls?
OSAS, cannot be satisfactorily be accomplished if we have both the "old nature"(NIV) or pre-salvation nature within, waging war against, the "new nature" as Christians. Which nature will win. If we adhere to Romans 12 we keep the "old nature" at bay, and we walk gloriously, and with the fruit of the Spirit, radiating from our lives.
God did not create a dualistic natured man. The old adamic natured man has one human spirit and nature, and the "born again" man has a new nature from above.
Again, the NIV is excellent, but is is weak, when it came to translating "flesh" or the fallen fleshly bodily, condition both physically, and in tendency by man's act of will.
The new or old believer is indeed a new creation, and creature in Christ. He/she does not fight a war between a fallen and a new nature. If you check out the greek, you will see that the NIV mis-translated "flesh" into "sinful nature". Possibly, "sinful proclivity" might have been an even better way, but the NIV did not do that either.
Paul's Roman's 7 war is not with two natures, but with his new nature versus the "old programming", plus the input of the power of sin that wants to wake up that old proclivity.
We, at salvation were given a new identity. We are not His sheep. We are in his sheepfold, and the Shepherd will not allow one of His sheep to be lost. In fact He will find that 99th sheep that is caught in the briars and brambles, and bring him/her back to the fold.
Just as the Prodigal was always the father's son, so is the son that stayed home. Sonship cannot be revoked.
One can reject one's offspring, in everyway, but that offspring is still that person's progeny.
When God says we are "born from above/born again", that is not a revokable work. Once a son, we are a son forever.
To say otherwise is to type our God, as fickle like the myriads of Greek and Roman gods, that manipulated mankind like marionettes on strings, by their humanistic fickle wills. That is not the nature of God, as revealed in scripture. No! God says, we are now His, that stands for eternity. If we, by our free will, choose to give into the power of sin and the flesh, we will live a most miserable life, and many Christians will say, "He/she has fallen away, or was never saved!". The miserable existence that the Christian who goes after the flesh(world) of life versus the one that choose by faith to follow the dictates of their true nature in Christ is stark and like a great canyon in difference. It is like oil and water. The two don't mix.
So for those who "pooh pooh" OSAS, please explain how we can pluch ourselves out of the sheepfold, or out of the brotherhood of Christ. To do so is to supernaturally change one's nature, by one's own act, devoid of God's omnipotent power.
To say, one can fall away by will, is to mock, and weaken God's omnipotence, and ability to maintain that which He has done/created.
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eightball-"We are not His sheep. We are in his sheepfold, eightball" Did you mean we ARE his sheep?:wavey:
You are sooo very correct. I reread my post the other day, and tried and tried to find a way to "edit" it, but I couldn't find an "edit" place to click.
I was in a typing frenzy, and had to jump up from the P.C. as soon as I sent that post. Believe me, I was really into it, but I didn't get to proof-read it.
Is there a time-limit on how long you have to "edit" your posts?
Yes, I meant "We are His sheep"..........I hope the other members or readers of that post realize it was a mistake. Thank you for assuming it was a grammatical mistake J.K.. :wavey:
This is forum setup is different to me. Normally you can "edit" your previous posts, even if they were done a few days before.
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I've done that before my brother....wanted to edit and to no avail!:smilewinkgrin: