Deception and OSAS

[Thinkingstuff]

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Hebrews 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God

2 Tim 4:4 And will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths

1 Cor 9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

 

[Revmitchell]

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Hebrews 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God

2 Tim 4:4 And will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths

1 Cor 9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified

 

[annsni]

Hebrews 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God

Does a believer have "an evil, unbelieving heart"? No - this is not speaking of someone who is saved..

2 Tim 4:4 And will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths

Read the context:

1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

It is not speaking of salvation here but those who are led astray in beliefs. We see that there are those in the faith who believe myths - and there are those who claim to be Christians who are easily led to other beliefs because they are not. I do not see this passage saying that there will be those who will leave the faith but who will stray from the truth - whether they are saved or not.

1 Cor 9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Would he be disqualified from salvation - or from preaching? Read the context.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Does a believer have "an evil, unbelieving heart"? No - this is not speaking of someone who is saved..



Read the context:

1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

It is not speaking of salvation here but those who are led astray in beliefs. We see that there are those in the faith who believe myths - and there are those who claim to be Christians who are easily led to other beliefs because they are not. I do not see this passage saying that there will be those who will leave the faith but who will stray from the truth - whether they are saved or not.



Would he be disqualified from salvation - or from preaching? Read the context.

Ok Context. In Hebrews:

12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.

A warning to Christians that they can be lead away from the living God. Yes its to believers to maintain their faith. Unless you're saying that Christians after Justification do not sin or have sinful thought?. Surely your not saying this? The warning is justly taken.

to your second response: the scripture shows that it is indeed believers that need to maintain their faith lest they fall away and loose it. It is rather clear that they are believers that then can be lead away again.

to your last reponse: context

1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

Preaching will no longer be an option but look how paul ends this thought that he maintained his faith and has kept it until the end. So the first part is part of this thought in that you must maintain even as Paul did. Why maintain? So as not to fall away and loose your gift.

 

[annsni]

Ok Context. In Hebrews:
A warning to Christians that they can be lead away from the living God. Yes its to believers to maintain their faith. Unless you're saying that Christians after Justification do not sin or have sinful thought?. Surely your not saying this? The warning is justly taken.

Do you think that a saved person has an evil unbelieving heart? That is so clear. "UNBELIEVING HEART" is not a heart that believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, is it? We need to encourage all of those who are in our midst that those who are saved continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and that those who have an unbelieving heart will know Jesus Christ and that, by God's grace, they turn their hearts to Him. But if one has an unbelieving heart, they do not believe.

to your second response: the scripture shows that it is indeed believers that need to maintain their faith lest they fall away and loose it. It is rather clear that they are believers that then can be lead away again.

Yes - believers who can believe in myths as we see many today and in the past doing. It doesn't mean that they lost salvation.

to your last reponse: context
Preaching will no longer be an option but look how paul ends this thought that he maintained his faith and has kept it until the end. So the first part is part of this thought in that you must maintain even as Paul did. Why maintain? So as not to fall away and loose your gift.

Maintain so that you do not lose your witness - and your rewards. But it does not speak of losing salvation.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Ok no Jedi mind tricks! Lets keep to the truth.....disqualified......

 

[Jedi Knight]

disqualified.....Moses was disqualified to take the people into the promise land when he disobey God. Some mix up blessings which can be conditional with our position in Christ which is not conditional.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinkingstuff
Hebrews 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God

Annsni: Does a believer have "an evil, unbelieving heart"? No - this is not speaking of someone who is saved..

HP: It is amazing to me all the rhetoric about context and to ‘whom something is addressed,’ but if the truth runs contrary to ones presuppositions, context and to whom it is addressed goes out the window in a heart beat. Sad but true.

“TAKE CARE, BROTHERS,” I could believe it only pertains to men before I could accept the conjecture Ann sets forth.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Annsni: Does a believer have "an evil, unbelieving heart"? No - this is not speaking of someone who is saved..

HP: I believe Scripture does represent some who at least were believers, and even possibly in some sense some that are currently believers, as having an unbelieving heart. Of course Doubting Thomas comes to mind as well as these verses.

Mr 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. Oh yea, and I almost forgot the verse in question. Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

 

[annsni]

HP: I believe Scripture does represent some who at least were believers, and even possibly in some sense some that are currently believers, as having an unbelieving heart. Of course Doubting Thomas comes to mind as well as these verses.

Mr 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. Oh yea, and I almost forgot the verse in question. Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

How can a believer have an evil unbelieving heart? I've never seen that in Scripture.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

What about Moses when he disobeyed? Did he at least for a moment exhibit unbelief? How about David, or Saul, or maybe one of us when we disobeyed a known commandment of God as a believer? Now only one of the examples I mentioned seemed to persist in his unbelief, i.e., Saul. I certainly have no confidence that he made it in. If only one of three mentioned departed from the living God, I would see that as good reason to warn all believers of the danger, just as God faithfully has. The only question is……….whose listening, who has ears to hear?

 

[annsni]

What about Moses when he disobeyed? Did he at least for a moment exhibit unbelief? How about David, or Saul, or maybe one of us when we disobeyed a known commandment of God as a believer? Now only one of the examples I mentioned seemed to persist in his unbelief, i.e., Saul. I certainly have no confidence that he made it in. If only one of three mentioned departed from the living God, I would see that as good reason to warn all believers of the danger, just as God faithfully has. The only question is……….whose listening, who has ears to hear?

We're not speaking of a moment of unbelief but an "evil, unbelieving heart". That is so much more.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Annsni: How can a believer have an evil unbelieving heart? I've never seen that in Scripture.

HP: Ann, the warning of the possibility is starring you in the face. If you will not believe the abundant and plain admonishment of God’s Word, what else could one possibly have to offer?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: We're not speaking of a moment of unbelief but an "evil, unbelieving heart". That is so much more.

HP: When one begins to see unbelief and disobedience, even in one that has ‘believed,’ as evil, having every capability and possibility of placing ones soul in eternal jeopardy, one is not far from the truth.

 

[annsni]

HP: Ann, the warning of the possibility is starring you in the face. If you will not believe the abundant and plain admonishment of God’s Word, what else could one possibly have to offer?

What I see plainly is not that this is speaking of a falling away of a believer but one who never had, as my pastor likes to say, a "heart transplant". A changing of the heart of stone with a heart of flesh.

It's not just me who sees this in this passage. Here is a message from John Piper on this same passage: http://www.soundofgrace.com/piper96/08-18-96.htm

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

What if one just disobeyed 'one' little time, eating just one little tincy wincy bit out of a forbidden piece of fruit, having been lead astray by their spouse, or so it was claimed? How utterly wicked was that? Somehow God must look at the end of rebellion, not just the beginning. Sin is like a cancer. It festers and always grows in size if left unchecked.

What does Scripture say? Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Annsni: What I see plainly is not that this is speaking of a falling away of a believer but one who never had, as my pastor likes to say, a "heart transplant". A changing of the heart of stone with a heart of flesh.

HP: I do not know anything other than what you say about your pastor, but the Word of God needs little interpretation on this one. You are ignoring the truth of this verse and to whom directly is speaks to, i.e., ‘brethren.’ Read it again Ann. “Heb 3:12 Take heed, BRETHREN, lest there be in ANY OF YOU an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.”

 

[annsni]

HP: I do not know anything other than what you say about your pastor, but the Word of God needs little interpretation on this one. You are ignoring the truth of this verse and to whom directly is speaks to, i.e., ‘brethren.’ Read it again Ann. “Heb 3:12 Take heed, BRETHREN, lest there be in ANY OF YOU an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.”

He is addressing those in the church - but not everyone who claims to be a Christian really is. Is everyone in your church saved? But if you were speaking to the congregation, would you speak to them as "brothers and sisters"?

Again, I cannot see an "evil heart of unbelief" being in a believer. It just doesn't square with Scripture.

Did you read the Piper sermon I posted?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Annsni: Again, I cannot see an "evil heart of unbelief" being in a believer. It just doesn't square with Scripture.

HP: If only I could draw cartoons and post them.