Deception and OSAS

[steaver]

Point 5 comes from Romans 11 not Hebrews 6. In the Romans 11 kind of "saved-then-lost" you can be grafted in again "if you do not continue in unbelief".

In the Hebrew 6 kind of saved-then-lost you can not. It is the unpardonable sin of Matt 12 and 1John 5 in that case.

Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

Please explain for us using the context of the passage why "falling away" should be defined as "blasphemy of the Holy Ghost".

It would appear that "falling away", if it were possible, would be no longer believing Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life. And if this were possible, then one would need to "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh" in order to be renewed again, which God would not allow. One could not see Jesus crucified for their sin, then stop believing what they have seen and understood, then decided later to see Him crucified for their sin afresh.

You need to prove that "falling away" means "blasphemy of the Holy Ghost". Second, you need to prove "blasphemy of the Holy Ghost" cannot mean "unbelief".

A tall order for you. Actually, an impossible order for you from my perspective, but I'm listening, maybe I have missed something.

:jesus:

 

[Darrenss1]

Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

Please explain for us using the context of the passage why "falling away" should be defined as "blasphemy of the Holy Ghost".

It would appear that "falling away", if it were possible, would be no longer believing Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life. And if this were possible, then one would need to "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh" in order to be renewed again, which God would not allow. One could not see Jesus crucified for their sin, then stop believing what they have seen and understood, then decided later to see Him crucified for their sin afresh.

You need to prove that "falling away" means "blasphemy of the Holy Ghost". Second, you need to prove "blasphemy of the Holy Ghost" cannot mean "unbelief".

:jesus:

Proving "saved-lost-saved again" from the bible always is quoted by scriptures that only seems to infer it by applying some equivocal and ambiguous alterations to the context. If it was even possible for God to decide discontinue His covenant HE has made with any of HIS children so that a born again child of God would be excluded from eternal life with Christ, they could never be saved again, because they would have need of another sacrifice for their sins. Its as if if Christ's atonement did not work the first time.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
1. Shipwreck of Faith. 1Tim 1:19
2. Fallen From Grace - severed from Christ Gal 5:4
3. Forgiveness revoked - Matt 18
4. Removed from Christ and burned John 15
5. Removed from Christ (Rom 11) but "he is able to graft them in again IF they do not continue in unbelief" Romans 11:23

An then of course - even Adam - Created perfect did not need to be "uncreated" to fall and become "lost".

The "first you must be uncreated to fall" argument does not work in scripture.

Originally Posted by Steaver
Point 5 you make does not harmonize with Hebrews 6.

Point 5 comes from Romans 11 not Hebrews 6. In the Romans 11 kind of "saved-then-lost" you can be grafted in again "if you do not continue in unbelief".

In the Hebrew 6 kind of saved-then-lost you can not. It is the unpardonable sin of Matt 12 and 1John 5 in that case.

But both kinds of saved-then-lost will do for negating OSAS.

Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

Please explain for us using the context of the passage why "falling away" should be defined as "blasphemy of the Holy Ghost".

Because in both Heb 6 and Matt 12 and 1John 5 the sin for the one who falls away is not recoverable.

But by direct contrast in Romans 11 the context is "He is able to graft them in AGAIN IF they do not continue in unbelief".

It is "instructive" that in 1John 5 the Apostle John explicitly references these TWO types of sin.

Point 1.

It is "instructive" that OSAS denies BOTH types of sin - so not sure how this is helping your case at all.

point 2.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Because in both Heb 6 and Matt 12 and 1John 5 the sin for the one who falls away is not recoverable.

But by direct contrast in Romans 11 the context is "He is able to graft them in AGAIN IF they do not continue in unbelief".

It is "instructive" that in 1John 5 the Apostle John explicitly references these TWO types of sin.

Point 1.

It is "instructive" that OSAS denies BOTH types of sin - so not sure how this is helping your case at all.

point 2.

in Christ,

Bob

Ok Bob, for something to be "instructive" when performing bible exegesis you will need to put forth "facts" that actually relate to the passage and context. What you are doing is called "conjecture". You have not offered any factual explanation for your pov other than your own conjectures. This is poor exegesis at best and is why your views have no support from mainstream sholarly teaching.

In fact, if we were to rightly compare the two passages (Heb 6 and Ro 11) we would see that both passages speaks of "falling" and Ro 11 states that the falling is "unbelief". In exegesis we need to stay consistant throughout the study of scripture. Exegesis would demand that the "falling away" spoken of in Hebrews 6 be of the same nature as spoken of in Ro 11, which is "unbelief".

Proper exegesis would reveal to you that Ro 11 is speaking about Israel as a nation and that the "falling" spoken of is "unbelief". There is absolutely no reason in exegesis to declare Hebrews 6 "falling away" anything different than Israel's falling away spoken of in Ro 11. Both are "unbelief".

Now with this proper exegesis applied, one can then look at these two passages, look at the context and make a right conclusion as to what the writer is saying. Hebrews 6 is proclaiming a hypothetical. This is clearly understood if one reads the entire passage in context. He is saying there is no point in going through a "get saved" speach to those who are already saved because there is no such thing as saving them again.

The writer wants to move on to the meat with these baby Christians so he is not going to give them a salvation message again. If it were possible to go from belief to unbelief in the proper context of regeneration then a salvation message would not work a second time. It would be imposssible. In Israel's case in Ro 11 it is speaking about rejecting Christ, not recieving Christ and then rejecting Christ as the hypothetical suggest in Hebrews 6.

You need to leave "conjecture" out of exegesis Bob, stick with context and do not go beyond what is written.

God Bless! :jesus:

 

[BobRyan]

Point 5 comes from Romans 11 not Hebrews 6. In the Romans 11 kind of "saved-then-lost" you can be grafted in again "if you do not continue in unbelief".

In the Hebrew 6 kind of saved-then-lost you can not. It is the unpardonable sin of Matt 12 and 1John 5 in that case.

But both kinds of saved-then-lost will do for negating OSAS.

Because in both Heb 6 and Matt 12 and 1John 5 the sin for the one who falls away is not recoverable.

But by direct contrast in Romans 11 the context is "He is able to graft them in AGAIN IF they do not continue in unbelief".

Point 1. It is "instructive" that in 1John 5 the Apostle John explicitly references these TWO types of sin.


point 2. It is "instructive" that OSAS denies BOTH types of sin - so not sure how this is helping your case at all.

Ok Bob, for something to be "instructive" when performing bible exegesis you will need to put forth "facts" that actually relate to the passage and context. What you are doing is called "conjecture".

I point out that it is "instructive" that OSAS denies BOTH the "saved then fallen in some way such that you can not be saved ever again" teaching of Heb 6, Matt 12, 1John 5.

You have only responded with arguments of the form "yes but that is not like Romans 11" to which I agree. Romans 11 fallen and then "He is able to graft them in AGAIN IF they do not continue in unbelief" is not the same kind of "fallen" where someone can "never come back".

But that does nothing to rescue OSAS from the problem it faces from BOTH kinds of "fallen".

The point remains.

You have not offered any factual explanation for your pov

I beg to differ.

In fact, if we were to rightly compare the two passages (Heb 6 and Ro 11) we would see that both passages speaks of "falling"

Indeed we would - as I have pointed out above.

You are having some difficulty moving your point forward I see.

Exegesis would demand that the "falling away" spoken of in Hebrews 6 be of the same nature as spoken of in Ro 11, which is "unbelief".

No it would not -- not any more than imagining that each time we see "sin" it must always be "the same sin".

Proper exegesis would reveal to you that Ro 11 is speaking about Israel as a nation and that the "falling" spoken of is "unbelief". There is absolutely no reason in exegesis to declare Hebrews 6 "falling away" anything different than Israel's falling away spoken of in Ro 11. Both are "unbelief".

Romans 11 says that "WE" (being both Jews and gentiles) are among those who are IN the body of Christ and who are NOT fallen.

Romans 11 says that "YOU stand ONLY by your faith" and that "YOU should fear ... for If He did not spare them NEITHER will He spare you" - thus individual salvation is explicitly the topic of Romans 11.

As a careful review of the inconvenient details in Romans 11 has shown - there is no way to imagine that salvation is not the topic of the chapter. And those who are IN the body of Christ and being warned not to fall are "both Jews and Gentiles". In fact Paul counts himself as among that group.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hebrews 6 is proclaiming a hypothetical. This is clearly understood if one reads the entire passage in context. He is saying there is no point in going through a "get saved" speach to those who are already saved because there is no such thing as saving them again.

Paul never makes the argument in Heb 6 "you must get saved - you saved people" in Heb 6.

Rather Paul argues that the saved must not allow themselves to become lost for if they do - they have no way back.

He warns them of a very real danger. He does not warn them against a mythical wild-easter-bunny danger that does not actually exist on planet earth. He is being very serious in his warnding in Heb 6 and not once does Paul make his case in the form "this is just a pretend danger -- kind of like a green goblin where in fact there is simply no such thing - no real dandger at all - but I like warning you about it anyway".

Imagine riding in an open-door helicopter and the guide says "do not walk around and get sucked out the door because there is no way back in once you get sucked out" as his way of saying "well now see - since there is no way back in once you get sucked out the doorway -- it must not be a real danger". All such imaginings fail the simplest of objective tests.

It would be like saying "do not jump so high that you hit the moon for if you hit the moon you will hurt your head and there are no hospitals on the moon so you will have to suffer with that bump on your head for a long time". No such pretend argument is found in the entire book of Hebrews -- much less in chapter 6.

Hence I agree with your statement that we should not go beyond what is written.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Romans 11 says that "WE" (being both Jews and gentiles) are among those who are IN the body of Christ and who are NOT fallen.

Romans 11 says that "YOU stand ONLY by your faith" and that "YOU should fear ... for If He did not spare them NEITHER will He spare you" - thus individual salvation is explicitly the topic of Romans 11.

As a careful review of the inconvenient details in Romans 11 has shown - there is no way to imagine that salvation is not the topic of the chapter. And those who are IN the body of Christ and being warned not to fall are "both Jews and Gentiles". In fact Paul counts himself as among that group.

in Christ,

Bob

Let me ask you something Bob,

I prayed to recieve Jesus Christ as my Saviour at age ten. From that moment forward I always felt the Holy Spirit working in me to avoid trouble, love God and love one another. Many times I failed at this and was convicted many times to repent, or reconcile, or forgive, or to ask for forgiveness. I was undiscipled, un-churched for basically twenty-three years until age thirty-three. I had some bible teaching between age ten and about age fifteen but nothing after that. I was basically a loner as far as a Christian goes not gathering together with other Christians or having any real bible teaching. All I had was the Holy Spirit.

There were many times in my life were I prayed and had my prayers answered immediately, knowing full well it could only be God. Not prayers for wants or stuff, but prayers for comfort in times of troubles. Once, it only ever happened once, I heard God's audiable voice dirrectly in my mind as I was praying. He cut me off in the middle of a sentence. My prayer was answered even before I got to voicing my need. Things like this can never be forgotten. I have found myself in the gutter many many times. I have been angry with God many times. I have turned my back on the Holy Spirit's promptings to not sin but refused His counsel and rushed right in. I have failed God over and over in so many different ways.

But one thing never happened. I never once stopped believing in God or Jesus Christ. Even in my sin I believed in Jesus Christ. How can one stop believing in Jesus Christ when they know Him personally through regeneration? Through the Spirit He gave us? Romans 8 testifies how one knows they are a child of God. I know I have Jesus in me, how then can I not believe in Jesus Christ? It would be like saying I don't believe I exist when I know full well I do! Can I erase from my memmory all that He has performed for me in my life? Can I change what He has birthed in my heart to believe?

So here is the scripture...

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:


What is it I am to fear Bob? Not believing in Jesus Christ?

Try it sometime Bob. Try to not believe for a day, for an hour, try it for ten seconds!

The only reasoning I can come up with in my own mind as to why I believe in Jesus Christ, after all the misery I have lived and all the abandonment i have felt from God in my life, is that Jesus lives in me and keeps me. I can find no other explanation as to why I continued to believe on Jesus Christ. It would be far easier for me to just chuck the whole Christian thing and fullfill my lust for life. But I don't, why don't I? Is it because I fear hell? No, if I didn't believe in God I wouldn't believe in a hell. I would just live for the day and when death came, so what!

I have no answer as to why I continue in Christ other than the Spirit He has placed inside me keeps me keeping on. I have no other answer to give someone.

Why do you keep believing in Christ Bob? Why don't you just chuck the whole thing and follow after your own lust? What stops you brother? Do you live by fear of hell? Why, if you just choose not to believe then there is no hell to fear!

The scripture says that I stand by faith. I don't see this faith as something I muster up within myself. It's just there! How can we stop believing Bob?

I never stopped believing Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I have stopped believing He would fullfill my desires so I took life into my own hands and found myself beaten down and looking back up to Him! I never onced stopped believing He is God.

So I don't know brother, even when I was living in sin I was still praying to Jesus. If I was praying to Jesus then I was believing He is Lord.

Why would anyone want to stop believing? So they can go sin? I went into sin and didn't stop believing in Jesus for my salvation. It cost me a huge amount of consequences, but I still believed in Christ.

Can you tell me how one can stop believing that which they know is true?

Things to ponder brother............

:jesus:

 

[Darrenss1]

Romans 11 says that "WE" (being both Jews and gentiles) are among those who are IN the body of Christ and who are NOT fallen.

Romans 11 says that "YOU stand ONLY by your faith" and that "YOU should fear ... for If He did not spare them NEITHER will He spare you" - thus individual salvation is explicitly the topic of Romans 11.

As a careful review of the inconvenient details in Romans 11 has shown - there is no way to imagine that salvation is not the topic of the chapter. And those who are IN the body of Christ and being warned not to fall are "both Jews and Gentiles". In fact Paul counts himself as among that group.

Romans 11 is not talking about salvation in the context you are referring to -
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Yes God DID cast away Israel because they (qualified as a national decision not individuals) rejected their Messiah. Rom 11 is an explanation of how God will bring the nation of Israel back to Himself after the times of the Gentiles. This does not mean individual Jews could not be saved but the covenant God made with Israel would be put aside during the times of the Gentiles.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Paul is the Apostle to THE Gentiles as a national group as a proper contrast to Israel as a nation. This includes Gentiles that were NOT saved as well as the saved Gentiles.

11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Paul's explanation then follows the contrast between Israel as a nation (including believing Jews and non believing Jews) and the whole Gentile people (both believing and non believing).

Therefore the verse
11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Has nothing to do with an individual Jew (or Gentile) who was saved by faith and then lost their salvation but the nation of Israel that rejected their Messiah because of their unbelief -

11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

So verse 23 shows that the Nation OF Israel can be grafted in again - eventually in God's timing. None of this has anything to do with individuals but the explanation is in the corporate sense regarding the future of Israel as a nation whom God chose as His special people and made a covenant with them.

Darren

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 11 says "You stand only by your FAITH" -- salvation issue.

Romans 11 says that Paul is trying to try some means to at least "SAVE some of them" Rom 11:14 -- salvation issue.

Paul argues that saved Israel of God is composed of BOTH "Jews and Gentiles" Rom 11:24-25 and that only by having all saved people from BOTH groups coming into that tree (both natural branches and wild branches joined to Christ) will "all Israel of God be saved 11:26

The salvation focus in this chapter is impossible to miss.

In Romans 2 and 9 Paul established the context in Romans for the idea of spiritual Isael "He is NOT a Jew who is one Outwardly" Romans 2.

And in Romans 9 "it is NOT the children of the flesh - but the children of the PROMISE" that are the Israel being identified in the book of Romans.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Darrenss1]

The salvation focus in this chapter is impossible to miss.

There's no question that salvation is what Paul had in mind in all of romans but if you miss the contrast in Rom 11 between group A - Israel as a nation to Group B - Gentiles as a nation (to be a consistant contrast) you will miss the point of the chapter. Israel being set aside then grafted in again is some 2000 years between the 2, obviously that cannot mean 1 man an individual lost his salvation then was grafted in again, the whole context is different.

Darren

 

[mmmcounts]

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Constant reference to this will answer many of your objections. Jesus sends these people away because He never knew them. They did lots of good things. They present their "merits" as if their actions cause them to deserve eternal life with Christ. A lack of merit is not their problem, though. They are sent away because Christ never knew them. The solution to this problem is not found in the Merit system. It is found in knowing Christ and being known by Him.

Now if in fact they believe they are saved, they would of necessity believe that at some point in time they had came to faith.

Clearly they did not. Come to faith, that is.

With the constant drumbeat of OSAS or eternal security being proclaimed from the pulpits across this nation and others, telling them that their actions are in effect divorced from their faith and that nothing they could ever do can separate them from God, how is such a message not bolstering the false beliefs of the ‘many’ deceived Christ speaks of?

The "actions divorced from faith" bit is an inaccurate presentation of what Sola Fide means. Sola Fide is not antinomianism, and you need to understand that as soon as possible. Likewise, a denial of the mortal/venial dichotomy does not negate all the times Paul said "By no means!" with respect to antinomian belief and practice.

So tell me, those that believe in OSAS and eternal security based upon one act of faith, what are you doing or what can you do to wake those that are now deceived out of their slumber before it is too late?

I'd go to Romans 8 verses 5 through 9. "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him." If the situation calls for it, I tell the person they are living by the flesh. Not by the Spirit. Perhaps the Spirit of Christ does not dwell within you. If he sees some truth in that, we'd rectify the situation by changing it in such a way that the Spirit of Christ dwells within him. There's your solution.

Could ones desire to bolster the assurance of another’s salvation by the teaching of the doctrine of OSAS be in the end found to be the catalyst for the deception of the ‘many’ that will be deceived according to Scripture?

It certainly can, and I have no doubt that it has done so in the past. This can only happen, however, if an antinomian mindset accompanies that message. This does happen on occasion, but it doesn't happen as a general rule- and this is exactly how you present it.

How can we be certain and know that we are not of the number that in the end will find they have been of the 'many' deceived?

In exactly the same way as with most of the other things we believe: Through faith.

How do you know God exists? Can you prove it? Isn't it just something you "hope for" and "believe in?" How can you possibly say you "know" God exists?

How do you know Jesus was a sinless man? Did you see every single thing he did throughout his life? How can you be so sure that the details about his sinlessness weren't added by redactors after the fact? Isn't his perfection something you "believe in" and "hope for?"

How do you know Mary conceived through the Holy Spirit? Did you actually watch it happen? Did anyone watch it happen? Isn't it more accurate to say you "believe" this or "hope for" it instead of saying you "know" it's true?

When faith is involved, you can say you "know" lots of things that are technically what you "believe in" and "hope for." Faith is, after all, "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

So let me ask you a question. Why do you encourage people to believe so many other dogmas and declarations with the full weight of their faith but make a notable exception in this case? If a person actually is born again to a living hope and an imperishable, undefiled, and unfading inheritance in heaven which, through God's power, is being guarded through faith, isn't it a good idea for such a person to rejoice in this fact? Why do feel such a need to complain about this when people do so? I mean, it's one thing to speak up when someone's making such a claim in spite of obvious evidence to the contrary- ie., "living by the flesh" all day every day. However, if you don't limit it to those people....

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
1. Shipwreck of Faith. 1Tim 1:19
2. Fallen From Grace - severed from Christ Gal 5:4
3. Forgiveness revoked - Matt 18
4. Removed from Christ and burned John 15
5. Removed from Christ (Rom 11) but "he is able to graft them in again IF they do not continue in unbelief" Romans 11:23

An then of course - even Adam - Created perfect did not need to be "uncreated" to fall and become "lost".

The "first you must be uncreated to fall" argument does not work in scripture.

Hebrews 6, Matt 12 and 1John 5 on the other hand present another kind of sin - another kind of "severed from Christ" and "Fallen from Grace" to quote Gal 5:5. John says that we are to pray for those who fall into sin but not for those who fall into the unpardonable sin from which there is no forgiveness.

Thus we have the perfect contrast between the Romans 11 issue of those unsaved who "have been removed for unbelief" and yet "he is able to graft them in again if they do not continue in unbelief" -- and those who fall in Hebrews 6.

In Romans 11 "You should fear for you stand only by your faith and if He did not spare them neither will he spare you" -- Then the text is very specific about "you will be removed" if you do not continue in that walk of faith.

Kind of like that MAtt 18 issue of "forgiveness revoked".

Let me ask you something Bob,

I prayed to recieve Jesus Christ as my Saviour at age ten. From that moment forward I always felt the Holy Spirit working in me to avoid trouble, love God and love one another. Many times I failed at this and was convicted many times to repent, or reconcile, or forgive, or to ask for forgiveness. I was undiscipled, un-churched for basically twenty-three years until age thirty-three. I had some bible teaching between age ten and about age fifteen but nothing after that. I was basically a loner as far as a Christian goes not gathering together with other Christians or having any real bible teaching.

Sounds bad.

All I had was the Holy Spirit.

Indeed John 16 says that the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

That is His role toward the lost.

But one thing never happened. I never once stopped believing in God or Jesus Christ. Even in my sin I believed in Jesus Christ.

So also do the devils believe in Christ according to James 2.

James points out that saving faith does not do one thing and believe another.

1John 2 states that those who claim to know Christ but then do not walk as He walked - are not telling the truth.

Should we believe him?

I think so.

So here is the scripture...

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:


What is it I am to fear Bob?

The text tells us specifically what that is

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

In Matt 7 those who say "Lord Lord did we not..." never claim "I no longer believe in the Messiah... I no longer belive in the Lord". This is also true of those in Matt 25 who say "When did we fail to show you mercy" -- All of them claim that they believe God and Jesus never said "well they did not say Lord the right way". Jesus' complaint against them was not that they said the wrong words -- it was that they showed the wrong fruit -- they did not DO the good deeds and SHOW the good fruit of the good tree. Thus their claims to believe as 1John 2 states could not be valid at the point of the 2nd coming.

IN Matt 18 The Lord says "I FORGAVE you ALL that debt" but the slave that does not embrace it in his daily life -- does not show that same forgiveness to others so The Lord says to RETURN all the original sin debt BACK to the fully forgiven servant.

Hence Paul's warning in Gal 5:4 about being "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace".

Hence John's warning in John 15 about being removed from Christ and thrown into the fire.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jedi Knight]

In Matt 7 those who say "Lord Lord did we not..." never claim "I no longer believe in the Messiah... I no longer belive in the Lord".

This I believe is a reference to Judas "and those who departed" did things but didn't know Christ in the right way"and ye are clean, but not all". Jesus never knew this person in a intimate saving way....he was not clean inside and nether were the disciples who left Christ in John 6. The went out from us because they were not of us.

 

[BobRyan]

In Matt 7 Christ says that MANY are on the path illustrated as leading to destruction and FEW are on the one leading to life. Then the illustration specifically shows the case of a GROUP given in plural form who declare that they are in fact true believers and are shocked that God does not consider them to be such.

Judas hanged himself -- and cried out that he had betrayed innocent blood just before his death. It is not likely that he will rise up on that last day and claim that he should be counted as a saint.

But there are those who will do that very thing, just as Christ predicted.

But in the Matt 18 example what we have is the King saying "I FORAVE YOU ALL that debt" and then saying that JUST as the servant benefitted from experiencing that FULL and free pardon - he should in the SAME WAY have offerred pardon to his fellow slave. Clearly it is a forgiveness revoked scenario showing saved-then-lost.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Johnv]

Foreknowlege, election, et al are problematic unless you also consider that God is not only omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowning), and omnipresent (being in all places at once), but God is also omnitemporal (being in all points in time at once).

It's not that God knows who will be saved and who will not, and therefore sits back for time to pass until that person dies. It's that GOd knows who will be saved becuase God is present at the tme of their birth, at the time of their death, and the time of their salvation, all at once. God is not affected by the passage of time, because it has no effect on God's existance. We, however, are limited to the passage of time, so we think of things like foreknowlege and predestination. There is no "for" or "pre" for God, neither does the lack of "for" and "pre" imply any sort of hyper-arminian position on the part of God.

I'm actually in the process of writing a dissertaion on this subject, which will likely take me years to complete.

 

[steaver]

So also do the devils believe in Christ according to James 2.

James points out that saving faith does not do one thing and believe another.

1John 2 states that those who claim to know Christ but then do not walk as He walked - are not telling the truth.

Should we believe him?

I think so.

James 2 never says "the devils believe in Christ". If it did, then it would contradict many passages that proclaim that all who believe in Christ shall be saved.

"Believing in Christ" is a phrase among US Christians who know full well that it is faith in Jesus Christ to save, which btw is a gift given us by God as the Holy Spirit indwellement(Ro 8, Eph 2). The devils have already been judged, so yes, they know who Jesus is and they know there is One God, but they have no faith in Jesus Christ.

Could you define for us what is meant by "walking as Jesus walked". If I read the scriptures correctly, Jesus walked with perfection. So how are you doing with this walk Bob? Did Jesus try His best, stumbling here and there, sinning here a little and there a little, or was He perfect? Do you ever sin Bob?

1 John 2 is speaking of Jesus' walk of love. This I always had from my rebirth at age ten. Not with perfection mind you, I'm not God, but when I failed to love my neighbour I was always convicted by the Spirit and was compelled to repent and ask for forgiveness, calling on Jesus.

So from my rebirth I walked as Jesus walked in love, even when I was living in sin my love was still evident towards others and the down trodden, the weak. When I seen a need I would help. I felt compassion for the poor and helpless.

So you didn't answer my question then Bob. I have walked as Jesus walked according to the context of 1 John for thirty five years now. I have never stopped having faith in Christ. Paul says I stand by faith and he is correct. So what should I fear? It has been thirty five years and I still believe in Jesus Christ, even through all my trails and tribulations, through my sins, through my doubts that God was still for me.

As i think back at those times where I doubted God was going to help me, guess what? I still believed in Jesus Christ! I was just having pitty parties that He wasn't concerned with helping me. So again, the "belief in Christ" never left me.

No one has never been able to tell me how I can stop believing in something, or someone, that I know is true! It's like looking in a mirror and saying to myself I do not exist. I personally know Jesus Christ is God so how can I stop believing Jesus Christ is God?

I trust that you "know" Jesus Christ is God, right Bob? So tell me how you can stop believing Jesus Christ is God? Now don't refer to the devils Bob, we all know the devils have been judged by God and they know Jesus is God. The devils have nothing to do with salvation and regeneration, this is for humans only. James is speaking about a false "said" faith. I am not refering to this kind of bogus profession of faith. I am focussing on the faith you and I have Bob. A faith that produces fruits of the Spirit, like love for one another. A faith that is settled in our hearts from rebirth, since the first time you understood Jesus is God!

How many times has Jesus worked in your life Bob? I'm sure you have many testimonies of how He spoke to your spirit or answered a prayer that it could only be from Him. I believe you know he is real, I believe you feel Him working throughout your being, even though there are times you feel He is nowhere near you.

How many years have you believed in Jesus Christ Bob? Have you ever stopped? Truly stopped?

I remember times when I was young, a teenager, and I was feeling so let down by God that I swore to myself I was not going to believe in Him anymore, He just wasn't helping my life. I even felt suicidal. But even then I was proven to believe in Him, because I was arguing with Him. Does one argue with one who they believe does not exist?

So how long has it been for you Bob? Was you ever able to stop believing in Jesus Christ? Let me ask you this way, can you ever imagine yourself stopping?

No doubt you will answer no, but you will still preach that the scripture declares it can happen.

I believe that those who teach one can stop believing in Christ after knowing Him are doing so either out of their own fears or out of a need to cause others to fear in order to keep them towing the line so to speak.

I'll tell you, I have no fear of losing my salvation and I do not say that boastingly. I simply know there is nothing I can do to stop believing in that which I know is true. And as Paul said, "ye stand by faith" and "it is the gift of God". Praise Jesus!

:jesus:

 

[Darrenss1]

Foreknowlege, election, et al are problematic unless you also consider that God is not only omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowning), and omnipresent (being in all places at once), but God is also omnitemporal (being in all points in time at once).

It's not that God knows who will be saved and who will not, and therefore sits back for time to pass until that person dies. It's that GOd knows who will be saved becuase God is present at the tme of their birth, at the time of their death, and the time of their salvation, all at once. God is not affected by the passage of time, because it has no effect on God's existance. We, however, are limited to the passage of time, so we think of things like foreknowlege and predestination. There is no "for" or "pre" for God, neither does the lack of "for" and "pre" imply any sort of hyper-arminian position on the part of God.

I'm actually in the process of writing a dissertaion on this subject, which will likely take me years to complete.

It sounds interesting but hard to get the mind around. You are saying that God exists in all future time periods (from man's perspective) as a way to explain God's foreknowledge? Therefore God knows the end from the beginning including individuals who were/will be saved because He was there in the future, although time for man was still in the past?

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

I believe that those who teach one can stop believing in Christ after knowing Him are doing so either out of their own fears or out of a need to cause others to fear in order to keep them towing the line so to speak.

I'll tell you, I have no fear of losing my salvation and I do not say that boastingly. I simply know there is nothing I can do to stop believing in that which I know is true. And as Paul said, "ye stand by faith" and "it is the gift of God". Praise Jesus!

:jesus:

I think so too. No doubt christians want to read into scriptures things they see that they can't understand and change their interpretation of scripture in order to explain what they see or experience. Rather than just take the bible exegetically and accept it as it teaches and let the bible define itself. I have heard some of the worst suggestions of how a christian can lose their salvation, based upon situations that practically don't ever happen. Like a person who is saved then backslides and becomes a serial killer, are they still saved? So silly but I've heard examples just like that.

The fact is we don't know 100% who is and who is not saved. Every individual must examine themselves and make certain. I think I have seen my share of professing believers, even relatives who say they used to be saved but now they live lives of sin and have nothing about them that says they are or ever were christians. To me there is no reason to assume they were ever saved on the basis that there seems to be very little to go by to treat them as, even as backsliden christian.

It seems to me that the doctrine of losing ones salvation has really taken a turn and now includes those that want to be christian but are being condemned by the very same doctrine as well. A very real doubt based upon the works of the individual, this is becoming so common nowadays. They are being told belief is not enough they are going to have to really work hard to "stay" saved. When foundational truth is denied then a snowball effect happens and pretty soon a whole lot of scripture is put in question and the eternal life that Christ once offered to those whom believe in Him becomes to those whom earn it. Either they become self assured or self condemned.

Darren

 

[steaver]

I think so too. No doubt christians want to read into scriptures things they see that they can't understand and change their interpretation of scripture in order to explain what they see or experience. Rather than just take the bible exegetically and accept it as it teaches and let the bible define itself. I have heard some of the worst suggestions of how a christian can lose their salvation, based upon situations that practically don't ever happen. Like a person who is saved then backslides and becomes a serial killer, are they still saved? So silly but I've heard examples just like that.

The fact is we don't know 100% who is and who is not saved. Every individual must examine themselves and make certain. I think I have seen my share of professing believers, even relatives who say they used to be saved but now they live lives of sin and have nothing about them that says they are or ever were christians. To me there is no reason to assume they were ever saved on the basis that there seems to be very little to go by to treat them as, even as backsliden christian.

It seems to me that the doctrine of losing ones salvation has really taken a turn and now includes those that want to be christian but are being condemned by the very same doctrine as well. A very real doubt based upon the works of the individual, this is becoming so common nowadays. They are being told belief is not enough they are going to have to really work hard to "stay" saved. When foundational truth is denied then a snowball effect happens and pretty soon a whole lot of scripture is put in question and the eternal life that Christ once offered to those whom believe in Him becomes to those whom earn it. Either they become self assured or self condemned.

Darren

Agreed.

Bob's scripture reference (1Jo 2) is a good example of this. He can correct me if I am wrong, but I take his reference to this passage to mean that since I lived a life in sin while believing in Jesus Christ, then I really was not believing in Jesus Christ. I did not "walk as Jesus walked". I take this to mean without sin from Bob's pov. Thus, as one transgresses God's law they are unsaved. If they repent, they are restored to salvation. So nobody really knows, even for themselves, if they are truly saved.

HP likes to tell Christians they can be decieved even by the Holy Spirit. You and I could be decieved. According to HP nobody can know for 100% sure they will be saved. What I life to live in Christ, sad.

God's word makes it clear, the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God. This is a statement of fact. This is how we KNOW we are saved. But HP will teach Christians that they can be decieved and not really know if it is truly the Holy Spirit testifying to them. What does this then leave us with? "Well, I think it is God"! Sad, very sad. ANd he likes to use, or I should say misuse, Matt 7 to promote this. HP wants to convince Christians that they cannot be sure they are saved. How sad is that?

:godisgood:

 

[Jedi Knight]

Just the facts.........True believers cannot stop believing in Christ and follow after other ideas. John 10:5 But they will NEVER follow a stranger; IN FACT, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."