Deception and OSAS

[RAdam]

People fail to understand where scripture describes people rather than giving out a list of prerequisites.

 

[BobRyan]

I agree with you all the way. I will say, "Once lost, always lost."

That would be one way to bring the gospel to a screeching halt.:tonofbricks:

 

[DHK]

"Though our heavenly Father loves ALL and "is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2Peter 3 -- yet He will endure the fact that many of His lost children will end up in that lake of fire."

There is no child of HIS that is lost. Your statement is false.
His children are those that are born again, born into his family, the children of God.

This is such a sad understanding of scripture. To believe that God would allow any of His children to end up in hell for eternity is really defaming of the character of God.

Your understanding of God is sad. We do not believe that God will allow any of His children to end up in Hell for eternity. Don't lay false accusations when they are really simply a misunderstanding of Scripture on your part. God doesn't send His children to Hell. His children have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life. His children have been given a new name in glory. His children have been given the gift of eternal life. His children have all their sins forgiven--past, present, and future. There is no chance of any of His children ever going to Hell.

However, those that are not his children; those who are still outside the family of God; those that are still under the control of the god of this world, and thus have rejected Christ, will indeed end up in a Christless eternity forever and ever.

There is meaning to these verses.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[BobRyan]

So the whole deal about everlasting fire, the smoke of their torment ascending up forever and ever, the worm dieth not, etc is all wrong because Christ talks about destroying both body and soul in hell?

Well that "immortal worm" idea does conflict with the other statements that we find in scripture if you take it too far. I agree.

But the Bible makes it clear that Soddom and Gomorrah are examples of the "punishment of eternal fire" and I gotta think that the Bible is true in that regard.

Have you ever considered that the destruction talked about is the casting of both body and soul into hell for all eternity?

Certainly Christ "could have said" something like "do not fear those who kill the body but are unnable to kill the soul - rather fear him who is able to preserve both body AND soul fully ALIVE for all eternity in the torment of fiery hell".

No question that if he had chosen to make such a statement - the words were there in the actual language to make it.

Instead of going that direction - Jesus said --
Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b][/quote]

Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, [b]do not be afraid of those who kill the body[/b] and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell[/b]; yes, I tell you, fear Him!


Notice that this is not stated in the form "fear the one who COULD destroy but WILL not do anything of the kind".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Certainly Christ "could have said" something like "do not fear those who kill the body but are unnable to kill the soul - rather fear him who is able to preserve both body AND soul fully ALIVE for all eternity in the torment of fiery hell".

No question that if he had chosen to make such a statement - the words were there in the actual language to make it.

Instead of going that direction - Jesus said --
Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b]

Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, [b]do not be afraid of those who kill the body[/b] and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell[/b]; yes, I tell you, fear Him!


Notice that this is not stated in the form "fear the one who COULD destroy but WILL not do anything of the kind".

in Christ,

Bob
[/quote]
You can't twist the words of Scripture Bob. Nowhere does Christ say that God will destroy both body and soul in hell. It says that he is able, or he could, or he has the power. But it doesn't say that he will. You rest your premise on a false assumption that the Scripture nowhere states.

 

[BobRyan]

The point in my post from the text of scripture in both Matt 10:28 and Luke 12 above - is more blatantly obvious to the unbiased objective reader than you seem to imagine.

 

[DHK]

The point in my post from the text of scripture in both Matt 10:28 and Luke 12 above - is more blatantly obvious to the unbiased objective reader than you seem to imagine.

No, it isn't Bob.
Fear God, because he is able to destroy this world with a flood.
But wait. We know he is not going to destroy this world with a flood because he has said so in other Scriptures. But fear him who has the power to do so. Satan has no such power.

Fear God who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell.
But wait. We know that he is not going to destroy both body and soul in hell. We know he is not going to do that because he has said that in other Scriptures. But fear him anyway because he has that power. Satan has no such power. That is the teaching of the verse.

 

[RAdam]

There is no child of HIS that is lost. Your statement is false.
His children are those that are born again, born into his family, the children of God.
Your understanding of God is sad. We do not believe that God will allow any of His children to end up in Hell for eternity. Don't lay false accusations when they are really simply a misunderstanding of Scripture on your part. God doesn't send His children to Hell. His children have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life. His children have been given a new name in glory. His children have been given the gift of eternal life. His children have all their sins forgiven--past, present, and future. There is no chance of any of His children ever going to Hell.

However, those that are not his children; those who are still outside the family of God; those that are still under the control of the god of this world, and thus have rejected Christ, will indeed end up in a Christless eternity forever and ever.

There is meaning to these verses.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I was replying to Bob and I was agreeing with you.

 

[DHK]

I was replying to Bob and I was agreeing with you.

My mistake. I think I realized that shortly after I posted it.

 

[Jedi Knight]

the case for OSAS is ended when we discover that the fully forgiven servant of the King in Matt 18 experiences "forgiveness revoked" and so must pay his own debt of sin in that "second death" lake of fire.

Bob

You state this passage like it's the only scripture in the Bible. Cults get started by camping on ONE or TWO verses and ignore the rest of scripture.

 

[Enow]

Let's contrast that with the Gospel that Paul preached.

Romans 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the [b]righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: [/b]

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be [b]tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil[/b], of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

The error in OSAS demands that God gives BOTH groups "immortality and eternal life" regardless of whether the person chooses to "ersevere in doing good" - just as you have said. How directly contrary that is to scripture in this case can be seen from the text above.

in Christ,

Bob

No. That is not what I am saying of OSAS. Eternal security is to be had by every believer, but as many are called, only a few are chosen, hence the elect which means vessels unto honour in God's House. That is the first inheritance.

All your verses up there are still going to be applied, but by His grace, you need to see that the Father does not cease to be Father to His children.

The vessels unto dishonour are the foolish virgins that have fallen away from the faith and the prodigal sons that gave up their first inheritance for wild living. Once those doors are shut, that is a condemnation because that "first" inheritance cannot be had ever again. This is where we get Esau weeping because he gave up his birthright for a meal: a foreshadow of things to come when judgment must fall on the House of God first.

1 Corinthians 3:10-23 and Hebrews 12:1-29 all describes the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience, but they are still His as vessels unto dishonour in God's House.

2 Timothy 2:19-26

Do check out those references in the King James Bible.

So we can be vessels unto honour :love2::jesus:

Or those that do not heed His words and do them.. great is the fall of that house as vessels unto dishonour:tonofbricks:

May all those that fear the Lord, call on Him now and trust Jesus to be Your Good Shepherd as well as Your Saviour in being ready to go... or be caught...:sleep:

 

[BobRyan]

the case for OSAS is ended when we discover that the fully forgiven servant of the King in Matt 18 experiences "forgiveness revoked" and so must pay his own debt of sin in that "second death" lake of fire.

You state this passage like it's the only scripture in the Bible. Cults get started by camping on ONE or TWO verses and ignore the rest of scripture.

What??

Did I forget to mention the same "forgiveness revoked" lesson taught in a chapter length lesson with NO parable at all - in Ezek 18?

Did I forget to mention Romans 11 "you should fear for you stand only by your FAITH and if God did not spare them neither will He spare you... but He is able to graft them in AGAIN IF THEY do not continue in unbelief"?

Did I forget to mention John 15 "I am the vine you are the branches... every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit ... is removed and cast away and burned in the fire"??

Did I forget to mention Gal 5:4 "you have been SEVERED FROM Christ and fallen from Grace"?

Did I forget to mention the less of the sower where the dead springs to life but then is choked out eventually by the worries and cares of this world?

Did I forget to mention Hebrews 6 where those who HAVE escaped the corruption that is in the world - and HAVE tasted of the heavenly gift - RETURN to their lost state?

Did I forget to mention ... (Well the list gets pretty long, but I thank you for asking that we take a look at the LIST). One thing to note that in that list there is also a "LIST" speaking to the subject of "perseverance" where the warning is that to fail to persevere is to experience doom. Please note there is no such thing as a warning to the lost about failing to persevere in being lost.

OSAS is limited in having to constantly ignore and reject the Bible teachings such as the ones listed above that so fully debunk it's teaching.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Enow
When a believer has been bought with a price and sealed as His, that is the power of God in salvation through Jesus Christ. That is His glory. Whethor or not a believer seek to run the race to obtain the eternal glory .

Let's contrast that with the Gospel that Paul preached.

Romans 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the [b]righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: [/b]

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be [b]tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil[/b], of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

The error in OSAS demands that God gives BOTH groups "immortality and eternal life" regardless of whether the person chooses to "ersevere in doing good" - just as you have said. How directly contrary that is to scripture in this case can be seen from the text above.

No. That is not what I am saying of OSAS. Eternal security is to be had by every believer, but as many are called, only a few are chosen, hence the elect which means vessels unto honour in God's House.

A contrast is shown in your texts between vessels of honor and those of dishonor -- Well I agree with that much of what you say.

Notice that the texts I listed above speak to "immortality and life"??

Also notice the attribute of "perseverance in doing good" being highlighted by Paul in that most desired result of "immortality and life"?

You say "Whethor or not a believer seek to run the race to obtain the eternal glory " - which seems to make a good case for a 4 Point Calvinist view of OSAS that does not require perseverance to geet to "immortality and life".

Did I miss something there?

All your verses up there are still going to be applied, but by His grace, you need to see that the Father does not cease to be Father to His children.

Adam is declared to be 'the son of God" and thus the child of God - at his creation accoring to the Gospel of Luke 3:38. God did not cease to be the Father of his child nor did Adam get "uncreated" -- just because he fell and became a lost child of God needing salvation, needing redemption.

There is no "so Adam was uncreated" in that story.

Nor is there a "the Father became NOT the Father" in that story.

There is a "second class saved person" idea in your points that is not found in scripture. The texts you speak to are also talking about the state of the lost, it is never a description of gospel salvation.

But I think it is crystal clear in the case of the Romans 2 texts that tell us that the objective is "immortality and eternal life" which I think we both agree is the difference between the saved and the lost.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

those who are still outside the family of God; those that are still under the control of the god of this world, and thus have rejected Christ, will indeed end up in a Christless eternity forever and ever.

There is meaning to these verses.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

As Rev 14:10-11 says this takes place "IN the very PRESENCE of the Lamb AND of His Holy angels".

As it turns out - this SAME chapter tell us ( Rev 14:1-5) that the saints ALSO are forever IN the presence of the Lamb as well (going with Him wherever He goes). So we will be right there to see all of the torment and suffering of our precious lost children -- should we have any children that are lost. And as is pointed out in Rev 14:11 the "smoke of their torment ascends up foerever and ever".

So much for "smoke ascending".

John states is this way in Rev 20
Rev 20:9 "Fire came down from heaven and devoured them"

Thus as Jesus said in Matt 10:28 He is the one show when he casts the body into fiery hell is ALSO able to "destroy BOTH body AND soul" not "just the body but not the soul" as occurs in this life.

1 John 3:15 points out that the wicked do not have 'eternal life abiding in them". God alone possess immortality according to 1Tim 6.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[RAdam]

Eternal life in the bible is defined as knowing God and His Son Jesus Christ. The wicked have not eternal life, neither shall they have it. That doesn't mean they will cease to exist at some point, because even now do they not have it yet exist. Lack of eternal life does not equal lack of existence, it equals not knowing God. The wicked will be cast into hell where there is total separation from God, thus they are said to be destroyed. Just as the felicity of the saints shall be everlasting so shall the punishment of the wicked.

 

[BobRyan]

Not having "eternal life" as a wicked person is the context of 1John 3:15.

The only place that says the soul of the wicked is not killed at death - is in Matt 10:27-28 yet it is that very place that tells us where when the soul of the wicked IS destroyed!

Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b]

Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, [b]do not be afraid of those who kill the body[/b] and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell[/b]; yes, I tell you, fear Him!



Obviously we see no "eternal destroying" going on here rather we see END of LIFE – REAL death not “living on in an unrepentant state”

Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )

Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.

2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;



Matt 2:13
13Now when they had gone, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him."

Matt 12
14But the Pharisees went out and conspired against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.

Obviously we see no "eternal destroying" going on here in Matthew's use of the term in the cases above..

Mark 3:6
The Pharisees went out and immediately began conspiring with the Herodians against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.

John 10:10
"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

 

[DHK]

As Rev 14:10-11 says this takes place "IN the very PRESENCE of the Lamb AND of His Holy angels".

As it turns out - this SAME chapter tell us ( Rev 14:1-5) that the saints ALSO are forever IN the presence of the Lamb as well (going with Him wherever He goes). So we will be right there to see all of the torment and suffering of our precious lost children -- should we have any children that are lost. And as is pointed out in Rev 14:11 the "smoke of their torment ascends up foerever and ever".

Why do you butcher Scripture and not tell the truth. Your eyes are deceived, and you deliberately take Scripture out of context. Look again, this time include verse 9

Revelation 14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The description is one that is on the earth. Verses 10 and 11 give the consequences of those that have taken the mark of the beast when they were on the earth. What happens to those that have taken the mark of the beast while on earth? They will be cast into the lake of fire. The smoke of their torment will ascend up for ever and ever and ever. They will have no rest day or night, because they have worshiped the image and his beast (while on earth).
It is an obvious meaning that you fail to believe. Why the unbelief Bob?

Of course they will stand before the Lamb. And they will see that their names are not written in the Lamb's book of Life, and be cast into the Lake of Fire and there be tormented for all eternity.

John states is this way in Rev 20
Rev 20:9 "Fire came down from heaven and devoured them"

"destroyed the physical bodies of the physical armies that once again tried to rebel against Christ. Context Bob! Context!

Thus as Jesus said in Matt 10:28 He is the one show when he casts the body into fiery hell is ALSO able to "destroy BOTH body AND soul" not "just the body but not the soul" as occurs in this life.

He is able Bob, but nowhere does it say he will. Why do you continue to take Scripture out of context. You deny the very content of the verse. It does not say what you claim it says.

1 John 3:15 points out that the wicked do not have 'eternal life abiding in them". God alone possess immortality according to 1Tim 6.

in Christ,

Bob

That is right. The wicked have eternal death abiding in them.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

BobRyan,

I do 100% agree with you that OSAS is unbiblical. But I do not agree with your intepreting that people's souls will be cease to be exist beyind the great white throne, by cast into the lake of fire.

Your beliefs is like as Annihilationism. It is unbibilcal.

In Rev. 14:11 telling us, "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have NO rest day NOR night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

This telling us very clear, that all sinners shall suffering in the lake of fire and they will not rest from their torment in there for FOREVER and EVER.

How about Luke 16:19-31? Verse 23-24 say: "And in hell he LIFT UP HIS EYES, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I AM TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME."

This passage telling us, sinners' souls are NOT sleep or stopped being to be exist. Their souls always remain live with their real emotionals and feelings.

Also, Luke 16:19-31 is NOT a parable! This is a literal happened to the rich man in hell and Lazarus in Abraham's bosom prior Christ's resurrection!

Rev. 20:11-15 telling us, follow at Christ's coming, at the Great White Throne, hell("first death") shall be cast into the lake of fire("second death"). Their souls shall be finally release out of hell at the great white throne at the resurrection (John 5:28-29), all unbelievers' souls shall be resurrection from the graves, and from hell. BUT, their souls AND body both shall be cast away into the Lake of fire. They will have NO rest and will always being torment there forever and ever, this is the "second death".

Notice in Mark 9:44,46, 48 in KJV say: "Where their worm dieth NOT, And the FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED." These are everlasting actions shall never stop. These three verses are quoted from Isaiah 66:24 says: "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their WORM SHALL NOT DIE, NEITHER SHALL THEIR FIRE BE QUENCHED; and they shall be an abhorring un to all flesh." This telling us, all sinners will remain in there, their worms shall NEVER, NEVER die, and the FIRE SHALL NEVER, NEVER fade away for FORVER and EVER....... according as what the Bible saying so!

By the way, in your mind of 'hell' is only a "temporary" place which all sinners' souls are suffering in their torments, then in the lake of fire, their souls shall be destroyed and stop being existing.

Well you are wrong.

Notice Both Isaiah 65:17-20; and Isaiah 66:22 mentioned of new heavens and a new earth, are quoted with Rev. 21:1-4. So, therefore, follow the next two verses in Isa. 66:24 mentioned of worms shall never die, and fire shall never quenched. Obivously, this is speaking of lake of fire.

Because, the lake of fire will be right there during great white throne prior create new heavens and a new earth. So, Isa. 66:24 telling us very clear that it is an everlasting actions with punishment that they shall never stop to rest and free from their torments in the fire, which speaking about the lake of fire!

Bible is very clear teaching us that all sinners' souls are never, never stop being exist, nor, their souls never, never sleep! Thier souls are always continue torment in the everlasting fire.

Remember, 'hell' is a temporary place as "first death", as hell is like as "prison" await for the coming great white throne, SO, therefore, the JUDGE(God) will send their souls removed from hell(first death), to cast their souls and bodies away into the lake of fire, this is the "second death", it is an everlasting punishment with sufferings and torments. Lake of fire is their FINAL eternality punishment destiny, where their souls will spend there suffering forever and ever....... without stop.


InChrist
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan,

I do 100% agree with you that OSAS is unbiblical. But I do not agree with your intepreting that people's souls will be cease to be exist beyind the great white throne, by cast into the lake of fire.

1. I believe the word in Matt 10:28 for destroy is very compelling - and far from "unbiblical".

2. The only reason the issue of accepting Matt 10 for what it says -- even came up was that someone posting in favor of OSAS and trying to solve the problem of Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" observed that "in the text" Christ clearly states that the unforgiven servant would be required to "fully pay" the debt owed instead of having it forgiven by grace.

They were arguing that in their model "full payment is not possible" so this must be something other than loss of the OSAS idea. I responded by showing that full payment IS in fact very much predicted in scripture as we see in Matt 10:28.

If you have some other way to get that full payment made, sidestepping the Matt 10:28 issue - it is fine with me.

In Rev. 14:11 telling us, "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have NO rest day NOR night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

This telling us very clear, that all sinners shall suffering in the lake of fire and they will not rest from their torment in there for FOREVER and EVER.

Correction - it says that while they suffer they have no rest - and it says the "smoke" of their torment "ascends up" forever and ever.

It also says that this entire period of torment takes place "IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb and His Holy Angels".

I believe all of that - literally is true.

That same chapter of REv 14 ALSO says that the saints are with Christ -- IN His very presence "wherever He goes".

So all of this torment and suffering of the wicked is fully accomplished IN the very PRESENCE of the saints, and Christ and His angels.

How helpful then to notice that instead of our being stuck for eternity "at the rim of hell" - that event actually completes with destruction "of BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" as Matt 10:28 dictates.

How about Luke 16:19-31? Verse 23-24 say: "And in hell he LIFT UP HIS EYES, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham,

1. An interesting parable about praying to Abraham instead of God and about Abraham being in charge of all dead saints.

2. We have a thread on the subject of Mary- where prayers to the dead are being addressed.

It is for those reasons that a number of Bible scholars that do not agree with me on the destruction of the wicked seen in Matt 10:28 still insist that the parable of Luke 16 -- is a parable.


They also refuse to believe in "immortal worms". Observing that this too is an illustration of the complete destruction of eternal fire. Because the worm that destroys the body - is never killed - it completes it's work of destruction.

Notice in Mark 9:44,46, 48 in KJV say: "Where their worm dieth NOT, And the FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED." These are everlasting actions shall never stop. These three verses are quoted from Isaiah 66:24 says: "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their WORM SHALL NOT DIE, NEITHER SHALL THEIR FIRE BE QUENCHED;

Notice - that this is not about "immortal worms" or about "immortal fire".

Worms and fire are those elements that "destroy" in the illustration of the trash-dump outside the city. Christ argues that the destroying elements will not cease to consume, which is not a promise of eternal fuel nor of immortal worms - rather it is a promise of the thorough nature of the destroying elements.

In any case - you are free to come up with a solution other than that - my point is that Christ's statement in Matt 18 that the fully forgiven servant that then has his debt returned to him - does in fact "pay in full".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Reformed in WA]

Perserverance of the Saints

I cannot help but be puzzled as to the doctrines held by many, in relationship to a heart of caring and compassion a believer is supposed to have for the lost. I do not believe I can ever remember of anyone that denies that one can believe they are saved and yet be lost in the end. Even those that claim OSAS are quick to remark that IF one does not make it in, they were simply not saved in the first place.

What one believes has no bearing on their justification before God. The church in Galatia certainly thought they were saved but by their actions it was clear to Paul that they were practicing a different gospel than that that had been given them. Galatians 1:6-10. Roman Catholics think they are saved just not all at once. So it is no diminution of compassion for the lost to say that unless God who is sovereign over all elects you to salvation, you are not saved and that once he does so elect you through His Grace, coming from nothing you have done to deserve it, that you are justified through the propitiation of Christ's sacrifice and the imputation of His righteousness. You are further given the gift of the Holy Spirit in your heart so that you may do the good works you were purposed for most namely Honor and Glorify God. But you will never again be a slave to sin or death. (John 5:24, John 6:35-37, John 10:27-29, Romans 5:9, Romans 8:1, Romans 8:35, Romans 8:38-39, Romans 11:29, Hebrews 3:14) and for those who once were with us (i.e. the tares) (1 John 2:19).

Now this is not a matter of mere conjecture or possibility for Scripture is clear that ‘many’ shall be of that number of deceived. Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Here Christ was speaking of the false prophets that He knew would come among His people and would lead some people astray. Again the Galatian Heresy, the Gnostics, etc... This has nothing to do with a true believer that falls away. We must always read things in context. (Matthew 7:15-23)

Now if in fact they believe they are saved, they would of necessity believe that at some point in time they had came to faith. With the constant drumbeat of OSAS or eternal security being proclaimed from the pulpits across this nation and others, telling them that their actions are in effect divorced from their faith and that nothing they could ever do can separate them from God, how is such a message not bolstering the false beliefs of the ‘many’ deceived Christ speaks of?

Because of your eisegesis of the text, reading in your particular theology and not reading the context of the passage you quote you come to the conclusion that those who Jesus says that he doesn't know where at least at one time Christians. They were not they were the "wolves in sheep's clothing" or in other words they are those who work Satan's will in the guise of working God's. Again this has nothing to do with Perseverance of the Saints.

But let's take your proposition. Given that anyone truly saved is eternally saved (i.e. justified). How does one approach someone who truly thought they were saved but falls away from the faith. That becomes the province of church discipline which is also very clear in scripture. It has been my experience that the churches that hold the highest view of church discipline are those that also confess to perseverance.

Does one honestly believe that if they would stand before a Holy God and try to make a case for their entrance into the Kingdom, do you believe for a minute that if asked in this present world if they have ever been saved that they would clearly attest to the fact that they have believed and are saved? I think not. If they would try to convice God, why would they not try and convince man of the same?

At the judgment all knees will bow and acknowledge Him Lord. I don't see your point. There will be no convincing of God. It matters little what someone says to any man as we have no knowledge of their standing with God. If someone confesses that Christ is their savior and if their actions uphold that belief who are we to say they are not saved. If someone professes God and yet continues to live as someone in rebellion to Him then we are to judge that person. As James states: "Faith without works is dead" in other words it is not by what we state but by what we do that shows our faith.

If we honestly love those that are deceived as to their standing before God, telling them that they need to believe is simply meaningless. They believe they have done that or they would not be deceived, now would they? You cannot tell them they need to examine their belief, for to do so smacks in the face of the dogma of OSAS and such questioning would certainly run counter to the idea that one needs to examine their works, for remember, it is faith apart from works, work s playing no part in their salvation, or so we are told.

Here you clearly do not understand the doctrine you are criticizing. Those who profess to believe the biblical doctrine of perseverance of the saints certainly call on each other to examine our faith. We do this prior to taking of the Lord's Supper. Why wouldn't we? There are those called Hyper-Calvinists who would not but they are a heresy. Most reformed people would always examine their works. A frequent prayer is to ask God to aid us in honoring and glorifying Him and where we do not asking him for forgiveness.

I believe you have confused justification with sanctification. Justification happens once and is your standing before God. We are continually being sanctified (made holy) and that will continue until we die. And we will never be perfectly holy until our resurrection.

So tell me, those that believe in OSAS and eternal security based upon one act of faith, what are you doing or what can you do to wake those that are now deceived out of their slumber before it is too late? If you love them you will do something to awaken them while there is yet time, will you not? What will you share with them? What truth will you share that will unsettle them from their deception? Is it not true that many of the deceived may well be within the ranks of the OSAS crowd? How can you, and what truth will you use to, awaken them when they are steeped in the OSAS dogma?

First you give yourself and any man more power than they have. It is the Holy Spirit that resurrects the dead or takes the scales from the eyes of the deceived. We are called to go out with the gospel and make disciples. But it is the Holy Spirit who changes anyone's heart from stone to flesh.

If God so chooses a person to be saved then there is nothing that person can do nor that anyone else can do to prevent that person being saved. For God has chosen them before the beginning of the world.(Ephesians 1:4-5).

So the answer to your question is give that person the gospel. Tell him he is a sinner and the wages of his sin is death, in fact even now he is a dead man. That he has to have Christ in order to be born again or to live. If through his works he shows that what he says is not what he believes that is how I would approach him. But it is still up to God to save him not me.

Could ones desire to bolster the assurance of another’s salvation by the teaching of the doctrine of OSAS be in the end found to be the catalyst for the deception of the ‘many’ that will be deceived according to Scripture?

So you are saying that we shouldn't use a clear reading of scripture (John 5:24, John 6:35-37, John 10:27-29, Romans 5:9, Romans 8:1, Romans 8:35, Romans 8:38-39, Romans 11:29, Hebrews 3:14) but rather use your man made theology to bring someone to God? No thanks I'll stick to the "foolish" methods God in His Word has given me.

Why could not the notion of OSAS be a possible source of your deception in the end? The deceived believe now they are OK and so do we. Everyone seems to speak often of ‘knowing’ they are saved. How can we be certain and know that we are not of the number that in the end will find they have been of the 'many' deceived?

Because in the end if someone is deceived and will not follow the truth then he is not of the elect and there is nothing anyone can do to save him. God chooses who he will have mercy on. (Romans 9:15-16)

I would advise you to get into a true church that teaches the whole Word of God and not one that who through their man made traditions teach a false gospel.