ReformedBaptist said:
The Covenant People of God is in view in this passage through the promise made to the fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This Covenant People is called by God of Jews and Gentiles. I think brother, your reasoning is refuted in a sentence:
"Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" Romans 9:24
Good point an glad you brought it up, brother.
First, I never stated salvation is not talked about at all, I stated it was not the context of the afore mentioned verses.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Remember, as I stated in a previous post - this in concerning Differing Nations or groups of People. Just as Moses represented Israel and Pharoah, Egypt. It was speaking of God choosing a people and passing over others.
Then vs 19 - Why does God fault, who can resist His will?
Fault with what?
We see previously that God used Pharoah to show forth His power that His name might be proclaim in all the earth. How will that Happen? By Israel leaving there in Power of God and conquering other great Nations in the Power of God. We know this is what happened according to the OT.
So the question is phrased from those whom God used to show forth His power and who His chosen People were. Remember Paul is giving an historical account thus far.
God, why do you find fault - Not individually but against a People. WHo resists His will or purpose.
IOW- Why harden us and then judge us for the sake of your glory, who can go against your purpose or will.
In essense God is stating the Pagan world understood that if God wanted to do something there was nothing that could stop God (unless it be another God - but WE know better ) So why do WHAT He did the WAY He did it?
Answer:
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
Oh man, who are you to question God? Shall that which is made say to the potter "why did you make me like this".
First - Again remember this is refering to a Nation or group of people not individuals.
The "man" spoken of, depending on context CAN mean single person, OR mankind in the plural form. Since scripture is speaking in a National or group sense it is used in the plural to be "mankind"; something distinct from God.
Why did you make me like this?
Much like Pharoah the representitive of Egypt who was 'raised up' or allowed to come into being (with God KNOWING what they would choose to do and be), we see them questioning God for making them KNOWING the way they are, and not in a way they would have choosen so they could be used of God to in a positive sense. And in God doing so, they complain He still finds fault with them doing just what He knew they would.
However, It's not about salvation but how they are used for Gods purposes to establish and bring forth His plan into being.
(remember earlier, in the national sense, [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy) And that is the answer God replies back.
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Can the Potter not make the vessels in line with His choosing, to be used for His purpose. One unto Honor (Chosen By God for His purpose - Israel) and another to dishonor (rejected by God for His purpose - all others being the Gentile World). Note the vessels HERE are in the singlar.
Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
The Gods plan is more than a one moment thing as Paul speaks to "if God endured" (carried along) with great patience the vessels of wrath fitted (completely worthy or made worthy) to destruction.
Here is a very odd thing. God carries these rebellious people along (allows them to be) until they are have completely rendered themselves absolutely and completely worthy of destruction. He made them knowing what they WILL do but God "raised them up" for a purpose as well - Just as He will show forth His glory in Israel, He will do the same in them.
This played out in the next verse:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Now the temporal sense is in view but that doesn't negate the eternal which is implied in both cases regarding God glorifying Himself in both vessels. But again here it's not salvation but speaking specifically to the purpose of God concerning Israel. We see this is STILL the view as we continue.
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Now taken by itself, you would almost have a case. However verse 23 and 24 are actually ONE Sentence. So let us place them together and see what it states more plainly:
Rom 9:23 & 24 -
And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Now WHO is the "us" in this portion?
It's the vessels of mercy as stated consistantly above, is Israel. Paul is speaking as a Jew NOT a Christian and you see that in the context. "even us (Israel) whom He called, NOT THE JEWS ONLY but the Gentiles. This calling still has to do with Israel as a Nation in the past NOT present. We KNOW in the OT that God called to the gentiles also.ie. Ninivah, Babylon and others. Scripture even states in the later times Egypt will be one of Gods people.
Anyway as we keep going you see this is still in a national sense of God dealing with the Nation. Look and see:
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
The prophesy:
Hsa 2:1 ¶ Say ye unto your brethren, Ammi; and to your sisters, Ruhamah.
Hsa 2:2 ¶ Plead with your mother, plead: for she [is] not my wife, neither [am] I her husband: let her therefore put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts;
Hsa 2:5 For their mother hath played the harlot: she that conceived them hath done shamefully: for she said, I will go after my lovers, that give [me] my bread and my water, my wool and my flax, mine oil and my drink.
Hsa 2:20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.
Hsa 2:21 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth;
Hsa 2:22 And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel.
Hsa 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to [them which were] not my people, Thou [art] my people; and they shall say, [Thou art] my God.
Who are those NOT His People in the Prophesy here; Look:
Hsa 1:9 Then said [God], Call his name Loammi: for ye [are] not my people, and I will not be your [God].
Hsa 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people, [there] it shall be said unto them, [Ye are] the sons of the living God.
Also reference by God is the wife issue:
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
This is without a doubt about Israel in a National sense and NOT NT believers.
