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Decisional Regeneration

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TCGreek

New Member
Amy.G said:
It still seems to me that you are saying that Adam only did what God ordered. That he really had no choice.
I don't think anyone can say what was going on in Adam's mind. I don't know what he was thinking! :laugh:

Unless you believe that God causes us to sin or decrees it or however you want to put it, then Adam had free will to obey or disobey.

1. Amy, How can Joseph say to his brothers, "You meant it for evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result"?

2. His brothers were evil, yet God work out His plan through their evil.

3. Amy, "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:33-36, NASB, emphasis mine)

4. At the end of the day, we just have to lift our hands and worship God, for his ways are beyond us.
 
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TCGreek

New Member
webdog said:
God told both Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree. The choice to eat of that tree fell squarely on their shoulders. If God tells me to not eat from it, the possibility is there to not eat of it. That is not decreement (if that's even a word)

Does anything happen without the knowledge of God in advance of the happening? If the answer is No, then that is what we mean by Decreed.
 

Amy.G

New Member
TCGreek said:
1. Amy, God decreed the sin of Adam. Because of my understanding of the sovereignty of God, there is nothing that happens apart from the knowledge and power of God (Isa.46:9, 10; Amos 3:6).

2. Paul says that God works all things after the counsel of His will (Eph. 1:11).

3. God decreed the death of His Son and delighted in Jesus' death, yet He was not the author of the evils carried out by those who crucified Jesus (Isa. 53:10; Acts 2:22, 23; 4:27, 28).

4. "Our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases" (Psa. 115:3).

5. How else should we understand life and the world of the Scriptures?

6. Through it all, God's character must be kept intact while at the same time man is responsible for his actions of evil.
I agree that God's character never comes into question. So please know that however we may disagree, that I believe that God is completely sovereign and I never challenge that.
God did not author the sins of those who crucified Christ, which means they did it of their own free will. He did not author the sin of Adam, which also means that he did it of his own free will. I believe free will is a part of us that was created in the image of God.
But our free will also falls within the sovereignty of God. We are only as free as God allows (or decrees :)).
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
Amy.G said:
It still seems to me that you are saying that Adam only did what God ordered. That he really had no choice.
I don't think anyone can say what was going on in Adam's mind. I don't know what he was thinking! :laugh:

Unless you believe that God causes us to sin or decrees it or however you want to put it, then Adam had free will to obey or disobey.

I don't think one concept is set against another. Let me offer one Bible example and then I gots to go to bed :sleeping_2:

Allow me in part to share in part why I became convinced of these things. John Calvin visited me in a dream and....JUST KIDDING. :laugh:

Some of these same things were being presented to me before I understood them or gave them my assent. So I gave the dilemma over to God and asked Him to teach me from His word. I thought to begin in Genesis and keep reading through the Bible to the end in hope that the Lord would make know His truth to me on the matter.

And as I like to joke, it wasn't Calvin that convinced me, but Pharoah. God said so many times that HE would harden Pharoah's heart to show His glory. When we read of Pharoah's responses to Moses, what do we see? Pharoah, of his own volition, hardening his heart! Herein is seen the free-will (agency) of man, doing according to all his pleasure/whim, and perfectly accomplishing what God determined before to be done! And the Holy Spirit is to gracious to provide an infallible commentary on this in Romans.

The same is seen in Acts 4:27-28 "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."


I have been listening to the Bible on CD in my truck on the way to work. And I listened again to the Gospel account of Jesus before the people and Pilate. Pilate sought to let Jesus go! But he didn't. Why? Because he, along with all the other people, were doing "whatsover thy hand and thy counsel determined."

This is really a great mystery to me. I cannot completely comprehend it. But I can stand in awe of it, and glorify God through it. And that is what I hope I am doing.
 

Amy.G

New Member
TCGreek said:
3. Amy, "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:33-36, NASB, emphasis mine)

4. At the end of the day, we just have to lift our hands and worship God, for his ways are beyond us.
In that we are in total agreement. Amen! :)
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
webdog said:
God told both Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree. The choice to eat of that tree fell squarely on their shoulders. If God tells me to not eat from it, the possibility is there to not eat of it. That is not decreement (if that's even a word)

Decreement is not a word, so your post is invalid. :laugh:
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
Amy.G said:
I agree that God's character never comes into question. So please know that however we may disagree, that I believe that God is completely sovereign and I never challenge that.
God did not author the sins of those who crucified Christ, which means they did it of their own free will. He did not author the sin of Adam, which also means that he did it of his own free will. I believe free will is a part of us that was created in the image of God.
But our free will also falls within the sovereignty of God. We are only as free as God allows (or decrees :)).

Now, at minimum, compare your understanding of the death of Christ with Acts 4 that I have quoted in another post with you. What say ye?
 

TCGreek

New Member
Amy.G said:
God did not author the sins of those who crucified Christ, which means they did it of their own free will. He did not author the sin of Adam, which also means that he did it of his own free will. I believe free will is a part of us that was created in the image of God.

1. Did God know that sinful men were going to crucify His Son?

2. Did God author sin?

Yes.

What do you mean by yes?

Because God is sovereign and nothing happens without his permission, by that we mean God decreed.

3. Amos asks, "If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it? The answer is a resounding Yes.

But our free will also falls within the sovereignty of God. We are only as free as God allows (or decrees :)).

4. You have just affirmed the sovereignty of God over human responsibility and that is why God turned bad to good for his good pleasure (Gen 50:20; Isa.53:10; Acts 4:27, 28).
 

pinoybaptist

Active Member
Site Supporter
I have been labeled hyper-Calvinist on this board, and there be some here who have hinted at me being outright heretical, but for the life of me, I cannot understand how God can glory in creating Adam and decreeing, that is foreordaining, in other words, setting events into motion, in which Adam will finally and without fail sin against Him, so that He will have to banish Adam from the garden, and in turn impute upon every one of Adam's descendant Adam's sin, and cause everyone to be born fallen, corrupt, and depraved, necessitating His putting on the form of a slave, and taking upon Himself the punishment of those whom He designed to save from eternity past, thru a covenant with Himself, delighting in His own death in the body of His eternal Son, in order for Him to have a people unto Himself who will praise His riches in mercy for generations ?

I cannot understand that. I do not see Scripture that makes God at once both the author and punisher of sin in light of such Scriptures as pointed out by those on this board, such as Scriptures that state that He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked !!

For Him to foreordain Adam's fall and sin, and pass on this depravity to others, and then say that He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, makes Him a HYPOCRITE !

Please do not justify such monstrous doctrine with pat references to God's "mysterious" ways and God's sovereignty (which no one denies).

I believe that, although God foresaw and foreknew that Adam will fall, it was not because He had set in motion certain events to transpire that will ensure Adam's fall.

I believe that the reason Adam fell, was because "dust thou art", that is, he was taken from dust, from the earth, although created perfect and without sin, until his predisposition to sin, bore witness to God's holiness, being the only One in this entire Universe, which He brought into existence, that was self-existent, therefore absolutely pure and holy.

Further more, I dare not proceed at this point.
 

Amy.G

New Member
ReformedBaptist said:
I don't think one concept is set against another. Let me offer one Bible example and then I gots to go to bed :sleeping_2:

Allow me in part to share in part why I became convinced of these things. John Calvin visited me in a dream and....JUST KIDDING. :laugh:

Some of these same things were being presented to me before I understood them or gave them my assent. So I gave the dilemma over to God and asked Him to teach me from His word. I thought to begin in Genesis and keep reading through the Bible to the end in hope that the Lord would make know His truth to me on the matter.

And as I like to joke, it wasn't Calvin that convinced me, but Pharoah. God said so many times that HE would harden Pharoah's heart to show His glory. When we read of Pharoah's responses to Moses, what do we see? Pharoah, of his own volition, hardening his heart! Herein is seen the free-will (agency) of man, doing according to all his pleasure/whim, and perfectly accomplishing what God determined before to be done! And the Holy Spirit is to gracious to provide an infallible commentary on this in Romans.

The same is seen in Acts 4:27-28 "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."


I have been listening to the Bible on CD in my truck on the way to work. And I listened again to the Gospel account of Jesus before the people and Pilate. Pilate sought to let Jesus go! But he didn't. Why? Because he, along with all the other people, were doing "whatsover thy hand and thy counsel determined."

This is really a great mystery to me. I cannot completely comprehend it. But I can stand in awe of it, and glorify God through it. And that is what I hope I am doing.
Point well taken about the Acts 4 referance.
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
Zenas said:
Maybe it's the quality of the preaching they hear? Seriously, as much as I hate to say so, it has a lot to do with how you package the product. A couple of years ago, I sat through several presentations for long tern care insurance. Each presentation (two of them made by trusted friends) left me no more convinced of the merit of long term care insurance. Then one day a total stranger from a distant city walked into my office and within 30 minutes had both me and my wife signed up.

Now putting this into the context of evangelism, seekers are easily won. Non seekers are harder but they can be won by the right evangelist working at the right time.

"13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, 'HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!'"

Dale-c, have you ever wondered why a loving God would capriciously condemn millions of His children to eternal hell by blocking out the Holy Spirit from their senses? If you have even considered this as a possibility, I must conclude that you don't believe the Bible. "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9. So yes, there is decisional regeneration. Otherwise you believe in a diabolical God who for reasons known only to Him selects some for heaven and condemns others to hell. And it's fine with me if it matches up with baptismal regeneration, but that can be another thread.

Thank you for this post. It truly serves as an illustration of DR in what your teaching here, and encourages me to contend earnestly for the faith on this subject.
 

Amy.G

New Member
pinoybaptist said:
I have been labeled hyper-Calvinist on this board, and there be some here who have hinted at me being outright heretical, but for the life of me, I cannot understand how God can glory in creating Adam and decreeing, that is foreordaining, in other words, setting events into motion, in which Adam will finally and without fail sin against Him, so that He will have to banish Adam from the garden, and in turn impute upon every one of Adam's descendant Adam's sin, and cause everyone to be born fallen, corrupt, and depraved, necessitating His putting on the form of a slave, and taking upon Himself the punishment of those whom He designed to save from eternity past, thru a covenant with Himself, delighting in His own death in the body of His eternal Son, in order for Him to have a people unto Himself who will praise His riches in mercy for generations ?

I cannot understand that. I do not see Scripture that makes God at once both the author and punisher of sin in light of such Scriptures as pointed out by those on this board, such as Scriptures that state that He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked !!

For Him to foreordain Adam's fall and sin, and pass on this depravity to others, and then say that He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, makes Him a HYPOCRITE !

Please do not justify such monstrous doctrine with pat references to God's "mysterious" ways and God's sovereignty (which no one denies).

I believe that, although God foresaw and foreknew that Adam will fall, it was not because He had set in motion certain events to transpire that will ensure Adam's fall.

I believe that the reason Adam fell, was because "dust thou art", that is, he was taken from dust, from the earth, although created perfect and without sin, until his predisposition to sin, bore witness to God's holiness, being the only One in this entire Universe, which He brought into existence, that was self-existent, therefore absolutely pure and holy.

Further more, I dare not proceed at this point.
Please continue. This is how I see it too.

I can't believe I'm agreeing with a hyper-C! :eek:

:tongue3:
 

skypair

Active Member
npetreley said:
vs. someone who decides differently. You must have some of the glory.
I'd like to get into the issue of how someone decides differently with you. Just how is that?

skypair
 

skypair

Active Member
Mr.M said:
Why are so many people so afraid of the reality of human volition? What is this big "scandal" trying to be introduced if human volition, created by God you know, is not just acknowledged but viewed regarding its interaction with the sovereignty of God?

You'd think people had "boogie men" trying to shame them for daring to even consider this quite real element in God's plan for humanity.

My personal belief is that the skewing and imbalance in many people resulting in a proper understanding of the function of the sovereignty of God and the human volition is because those without capacity for DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY are trying to comprehend it fully, and it can't be. Such attempts only result in maddening doctrines and ridiculous ends.

So many are shocked at the mere concept that God can and is sovereign while allowing the course of human events to be predicated on NOT just his sovereignty but incorporated in that scheme is human volition.

A gasp! How can this be! Heresy! God is no longer sovereign! Puhlease. YOU might no longer be sovereign if that were the case but God's sovereignty and your infantile capacity to grasp the nature, scope and function of divine sovereignty ARE not the same. For most people it simply comes down to them not understanding how both can exist so they OPT for an over emphasis on the one and then FORCE a THEOLOGICAL GRID on the Scriptures and any passages they can find as evidence that it is there are they claim, they use.

Must like looking for a certain number everywhere. If you add things, subtract them, multiply and so on the right way, a certain number will suddenly start showing up everywhere there are numbers. Why? Because you have determined it to be so, hence what you find you will MAKE be that way.
Quoting you again cause that was well said! Bless you, brother!

skypair
 

skypair

Active Member
Dale-c said:
THe free willers still can't/won't answer the "why" do some believe and others do not.
We try to stay REAL on this board. Let's not spoil the moment.

Some people believe because they are CONVICTED -- some are not. You know -- John 16:8-10. "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;"

Is that not good enough for you?

skypair
 

skypair

Active Member
ReformedBaptist said:
No, that would be what is called theologically, double-predestination, God becoming an active agent in the damnation of men.

What the statement above somewhat assumes is a proper understanding of the Providence of God. That is, that nothing, no matter how great or small, happens or is outside the determination and appointment of God. It is to simply say, God is sovereign. Others have called this the eternal decree of God. To affirm this is to affirm Daniel 4:35 "And he doth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, what dost thou?"

"God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree."
That's "lawyer-speak" for God sovereignly created sin "by decree" (so it's alright) and He violently has to snatch the "elect" from their natural course in life to save them.

skypair
 

skypair

Active Member
ReformedBaptist said:
It is essentially the teaching that man has the ability to regenerate himself.
Yeah -- by OBEYING God and trusting in His promises!

If they come to Christ under the belief that their decision effects the new birth, and are given further instruction to firm them in that belief, then they may choose but nothing happen according to the operation of God. What you would have then is a sinner (unregenerate) who thinks they are safe from God's wrath but are not.[/qupte] WOW!! This is like the Pharisees who --- "shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." Mt 23:13

There could not be a better "prophylactic" against the "new birth" than to warn someone about receiving Christ as Savior!!

skypair
 
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Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Another classic line of misrepresentation courtesy of our high-flyin' friend SP . In his garbled world of interpretation he said : " ... He violently has to snatch the elect" from their natural course in life to save them." Hmmm , what Calvinist has uttered this stupidity ? O , that's right . It came from the mind of SP !
 
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lbaker

New Member
pinoybaptist said:
you must repent, brother. what are you doing on Baptist Board while at work ?

just kidding, all right ?:smilewinkgrin:

LOL - sure, no problem. If it wasn't for BB I'd be bored to death sometimes, waiting on something to break.
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
Dale-c said:
That is a very descriptive term: decisional regeneration.

And it does indeed match up well with Baptismal regeneration.

THe free willers still can't/won't answer the "why" do some believe and others do not.

Denial is not a river in Egypt. The hardest thing for an alcholic to do is to admit they are an alcholic in need of help.

The hardest thing for a sinner to do is to admit they are a sinner.

We can be like Adam and Eve and find out how we can blame other for our problem like God in this case or blame ourselves for we are where the problem lies. It has nothing to do with God, because He wants all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth..
 
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