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Decisional Regeneration
- Thread starter ReformedBaptist
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ReformedBaptist
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Amy.G said:
Although God created man upright and perfect, and gave him a righteous law, which had been unto life had he kept it, and threatened death upon the breach thereof, yet he did not long abide in this honour; Satan using the subtlety of the serpent to subdue Eve, then by her seducing Adam, who, without any compulsion, did willfully transgress the law of their creation, and the command given unto them, in eating the forbidden fruit, which God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
Amy.G said:
No, that would be what is called theologically, double-predestination, God becoming an active agent in the damnation of men.
What the statement above somewhat assumes is a proper understanding of the Providence of God. That is, that nothing, no matter how great or small, happens or is outside the determination and appointment of God. It is to simply say, God is sovereign. Others have called this the eternal decree of God. To affirm this is to affirm Daniel 4:35 "And he doth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, what dost thou?"
"God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree."
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
swaimj said:
The term I think was coined by James E. Adams, and was used to describe what we viewed in the Youtube video(s). It is essentially the teaching that man has the ability to regenerate himself. Adams uses the illustration of baptismal regeneration. This teaching supposes that man by his will and operation (even though he may believe in a mysterious operation of God) effects the new birth.
Adams writes,
"But the twentieth century Church has, in 'Decisional Regeneration,' a more subtle falsehood to combat. 'Decisional Regeneration' differs from Baptismal Regeneration only in the fact that it attaches the certainty of the new birth to a different act. This doctrine, just as Baptismal Regeneration, sees the new birth as the result of a mechanical process that can be performed by man. What is here called 'Decisional Regeneration' has in its deceptive way permeated much of the Christian Church."
The mechanical process, of course, in DR is man's decision surounded by certain steps or activities, i.e. come forward, raise your hand, sign this card, et.
Something should be said as to the purpose of addressing such a subject. While I attempted at humor in my OP, knowing this subject is controversial, the heart of addressing this is love. I would that all God's people spoke the same things and had the same mind. I also write these things from a genuine concern for sinners. If they come to Christ under the belief that their decision effects the new birth, and are given further instruction to firm them in that belief, then they may choose but nothing happen according to the operation of God. What you would have then is a sinner (unregenerate) who thinks they are safe from God's wrath but are not.
This is Adam's article on the subject http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/etc/printer-friendly.asp?ID=509
I haven't read it in its entirety. My pastor once used the term and it so well described "free-will" theology as is seen in modern churches that it stuck in my head.
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ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
Amy.G said:
I must assume that either
1. These things are so new to some that they are truly difficult to understand.
or
2. The questioning here is more socratic that inquisitive. Meaning, these are not really questions looking for answers, but questions looking to teach.
I say that because you ask whether or not Adam had free-will. Yet the statement is pretty plain. I will highlight that part this time:
"God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree."
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
webdog said:
I was curious before, and ask honestly, why does one believe and another does not. You are a believer. What makes you to differ from the nonbeliever who heard the Gospel just as you but did not believe? You can answer in PM if you wish, since its off the OP. Or publically..lol
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
webdog said:
Hey web,
I am quoting my statement of faith (personally, and that of my church) which I find very useful for these discussions, mainly cause they articulate better than me. :smilewinkgrin:
It's the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith. You can view it here http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html
The problem is, I can tell you why I believed...but I can't tell you why someone else when presented with the Truth didn't. The Bible only states that faith comes by hearing / understanding, and that from the Word of God. Nobody can crawl into the mind of the reprobate, so any conclusion reached is mere speculation. The answer is: I don't know, and I can't know this side of Heaven. As I said, I can tell you why I believed, but I can't tell you why someone didn't.ReformedBaptist said:
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
Amy.G said:
Sure, God has decreed in Himself, and that from all eternity, by His own counsel and will, everything that comes to pass. Now, this don't mean God is the author of sin, neither is He partakin' in it. It don't mean either that He is forcing anyone's will, and it don't mean second causes are taken away, but it establishes them. And in this we see God's Almighty wisdom in ordering all things according to His will.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
webdog said:
Thanks for an honest answer.
It still seems to me that you are saying that Adam only did what God ordered. That he really had no choice.ReformedBaptist said:
I don't think anyone can say what was going on in Adam's mind. I don't know what he was thinking! :laugh:
Unless you believe that God causes us to sin or decrees it or however you want to put it, then Adam had free will to obey or disobey.
Amy.G said:
1. Amy, God decreed the sin of Adam. Because of my understanding of the sovereignty of God, there is nothing that happens apart from the knowledge and power of God (Isa.46:9, 10; Amos 3:6).
2. Paul says that God works all things after the counsel of His will (Eph. 1:11).
3. God decreed the death of His Son and delighted in Jesus' death, yet He was not the author of the evils carried out by those who crucified Jesus (Isa. 53:10; Acts 2:22, 23; 4:27, 28).
4. "Our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases" (Psa. 115:3).
5. How else should we understand life and the world of the Scriptures?
6. Through it all, God's character must be kept intact while at the same time man is responsible for his actions of evil.
Dale-c said:
Maybe it's the quality of the preaching they hear? Seriously, as much as I hate to say so, it has a lot to do with how you package the product. A couple of years ago, I sat through several presentations for long tern care insurance. Each presentation (two of them made by trusted friends) left me no more convinced of the merit of long term care insurance. Then one day a total stranger from a distant city walked into my office and within 30 minutes had both me and my wife signed up.
Now putting this into the context of evangelism, seekers are easily won. Non seekers are harder but they can be won by the right evangelist working at the right time.
"13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, 'HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!'"
Dale-c, have you ever wondered why a loving God would capriciously condemn millions of His children to eternal hell by blocking out the Holy Spirit from their senses? If you have even considered this as a possibility, I must conclude that you don't believe the Bible. "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9. So yes, there is decisional regeneration. Otherwise you believe in a diabolical God who for reasons known only to Him selects some for heaven and condemns others to hell. And it's fine with me if it matches up with baptismal regeneration, but that can be another thread.
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