Defending the truth against the primary so called "proof texts" against Calvinism

[Winman]

You are attempting to say that John Calvin followed the teachings of Martin Luther. Well,he did agree with much of what Martin Luther taught,but Calvin was his own man. He didn't walk in lock-step with him on a number of things. That's why many Christians in Germany during Martin Luther's time did not go along with the teachings of Geneva's Christians. They were two different camps --the Lutherans (called so later) and the Reformed.

And where do you get off saying Martin Luther was a heretic and followed superstitions?
Luther was considered a heretic by the Roman Catholics. Do you have sympathy with Rome?

I was speaking of Augustine.

 

[Winman]

Again you fail to see Romans 5 as truth, you cannot answer the verses offered, you divert the discussion, and blame Calvin for your inability to welcome the word. What I posted stands.



No....the scriptures teach it. If Calvin read his bible and believed what it said it should be no surprise.

It is you denying the word-
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me

and you never answered what was posted on romans 5:12 all sinned in adam
because you have no answer to truth.

then you say this???

Every christian is a sinner , who is quickened and filled with the Spirit.If you do not understand or believe this you need to deal with Jesus about what salvation is. All sheep understand this! Do you claim to believe in the God of the bible? Seriously.....How do you think sinners get saved??
This might just be the heart of the issue. There can be no further progress unless you come to grips with this truth.Jesus saves sinners .
Maybe I can see why you do not welcome the verses that are offered to you.

I have addressed both Psa 51:5 and Rom 5:12 in this thread. Psa 51:5 is obvious figurative language and should never be used as the foundation of doctrine. Rom 5:12 does not say Adam's sin passed on us, it says DEATH. Then it shows death passed on us because of our own personal sin.
I also showed that Rom 5:19 CANNOT be saying that Adam's sin is imputed to all men, because then it would also have to say that Christ's righteousness is imputed to all men.
It is you that does not WELCOME the truth.
You should try studying the scriptures apart from your Reformed authors who wrest scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

I have addressed both Psa 51:5 and Rom 5:12 in this thread. Psa 51:5 is obvious figurative language and should never be used as the foundation of doctrine. Rom 5:12 does not say Adam's sin passed on us, it says DEATH. Then it shows death passed on us because of our own personal sin.
I also showed that Rom 5:19 CANNOT be saying that Adam's sin is imputed to all men, because then it would also have to say that Christ's righteousness is imputed to all men.
It is you that does not WELCOME the truth.
You should try studying the scriptures apart from your Reformed authors who wrest scripture.

Here is the scriptural answer you continue to deny,and not answer once again;

Quote:
8 The use of the aor. in both Romans passages, in their given context, point to an event, i.e., mankind did not simply inherit a sinful nature or tendency from Adam—“all have sinned,” thus referring to personal experience and activity, but “all sinned” in an event, a point in time (Rom. 3:23, pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/. “For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…” Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton. “by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”). Every human being is a sinner by imputation, nature and personal activity.

but “all sinned” in an event, a point in time (Rom. 3:23, pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/. “For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…”

It all happened in Adam at a ......point in time......When he sinned,we sinned......but “all sinned” in an event, a point in time .....Do you see it???

“by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”

At that very moment, at that exact point in time.......that is what the scripture says......it does not say anything other than that...and it is not going to change.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman...you repeat this...you and others repeat this;

I also showed that Rom 5:19 CANNOT be saying that Adam's sin is imputed to all men, because then it would also have to say that Christ's righteousness is imputed to all men

1cor 15:22 clarifys this and you refuse to believe it-

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is the answer both here and in Romans 5- there is no other answer than this. Those who remain in Adam die [goats,tares,apostates]
Those who are found In Christ[sheep ,wheat, elect] are saved.

If you deny this you deny the heart of the gospel.

 

[Winman]

Here is the scriptural answer you continue to deny,and not answer once again;


but “all sinned” in an event, a point in time (Rom. 3:23, pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/. “For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…”

It all happened in Adam at a ......point in time......When he sinned,we sinned......but “all sinned” in an event, a point in time .....Do you see it???

“by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”

At that very moment, at that exact point in time.......that is what the scripture says......it does not say anything other than that...and it is not going to change.

I do not read Greek, so your argument is meaningless to me. But I have read enough commentaries to know those scholars who do know Greek often disagree on the interpretations of many passages, verses, and words of scripture. I have seen regular posters here who claim to know Greek often disagree as to the interpretation of many passages, verses, or words of scripture. And mostly, I have seen that those who use this line of argument almost always interpret these controversial passages, verses, or words to suit and agree with their own personal doctrine. I am sure I could find scholars who strongly disagree with the interpretation you provided, and I am sure you would reject it.
I am satisfied that God governs the affairs of men and provided his Word for me in English. I rely on that and do not see anything close to your interpretation in Romans 5 or 3:23.

 

[Rippon]

I was speaking of Augustine.

So you believe that he was a heretic? Do you regard him as a damnable heretic -- or one that was off in some teachings but still saved?

You might have missed this when I posted this a bit ago.It's from Mark Sidwell in Biblical Viewpoint:

"...modern Christians need to gain an appreciation of his true worth in light of the shallow,intemperate,and historically uninformed attacks on Augustine by some modern conservative Christian writers."

And Augustine was no novice when he wrote his great works on the Trinity and The City of God.

He was 37 when he became Bishop of Hippo. He wrote most of his works,including his Retractions later in life.

 

[Iconoclast]

I do not read Greek, so your argument is meaningless to me. But I have read enough commentaries to know those scholars who do know Greek often disagree on the interpretations of many passages, verses, and words of scripture. I have seen regular posters here who claim to know Greek often disagree as to the interpretation of many passages, verses, or words of scripture. And mostly, I have seen that those who use this line of argument almost always interpret these controversial passages, verses, or words to suit and agree with their own personal doctrine. I am sure I could find scholars who strongly disagree with the interpretation you provided, and I am sure you would reject it.
I am satisfied that God governs the affairs of men and provided his Word for me in English. I rely on that and do not see anything close to your interpretation in Romans 5 or 3:23.

Well......go ahead and find one then.....but this is it.....
Winman.....if this is it would you repent and believe it? Would you have a problem with it....if it is exactly the truth God put in the word???

I really want you to respond to this from the next post;

then you say this???

Quote:
There is no such thing as a sinner who is filled with the Holy Spirit.


Every christian is a sinner , who is quickened and filled with the Spirit.If you do not understand or believe this you need to deal with Jesus about what salvation is. All sheep understand this! Do you claim to believe in the God of the bible? Seriously.....How do you think sinners get saved??
This might just be the heart of the issue. There can be no further progress unless you come to grips with this truth.Jesus saves sinners .
Maybe I can see why you do not welcome the verses that are offered to you.
Today 09:38 PM

I can not say it in a way that is not offensive sounding,sorry for that, but i really think this is crucial to understand.

 

[glfredrick]

I do not read Greek, so your argument is meaningless to me. But I have read enough commentaries to know those scholars who do know Greek often disagree on the interpretations of many passages, verses, and words of scripture. I have seen regular posters here who claim to know Greek often disagree as to the interpretation of many passages, verses, or words of scripture. And mostly, I have seen that those who use this line of argument almost always interpret these controversial passages, verses, or words to suit and agree with their own personal doctrine. I am sure I could find scholars who strongly disagree with the interpretation you provided, and I am sure you would reject it.
I am satisfied that God governs the affairs of men and provided his Word for me in English. I rely on that and do not see anything close to your interpretation in Romans 5 or 3:23.

Your argument about Romans 5 places you solidly in the minority opinion (actually, you cross over into utter falsehood) on that verse. Claiming that some disagree over the Greek interpretation (which is much more sure than the English) is a cop out. Bring the scholarship to refute the point or admit that you are wrong and recant your own incorrect position.

 

[Winman]

Well......go ahead and find one then.....but this is it.....
Winman.....if this is it would you repent and believe it? Would you have a problem with it....if it is exactly the truth God put in the word???

I really want you to respond to this from the next post;


I can not say it in a way that is not offensive sounding,sorry for that, but i really think this is crucial to understand.

Why don't you start a thread concerning that interpretation you provided, there are many here on this forum who claim to be authorities on Greek. I am willing to make a friendly bet that some will disagree.

And as for you questioning my salvation, the last thing in the world that would worry me is a Calvinist doing so.

 

[Iconoclast]

Why don't you start a thread concerning that interpretation you provided, there are many here on this forum who claim to be authorities on Greek. I am willing to make a friendly bet that some will disagree.

And as for you questioning my salvation, the last thing in the world that would worry me is a Calvinist doing so.

Winman, could you respond to this or explain your statement please?
you posted it-

I really want you to respond to this from the next post;

Quote:
then you say this???

Quote:
There is no such thing as a sinner who is filled with the Holy Spirit.


Every christian is a sinner , who is quickened and filled with the Spirit.If you do not understand or believe this you need to deal with Jesus about what salvation is. All sheep understand this! Do you claim to believe in the God of the bible? Seriously.....How do you think sinners get saved??
This might just be the heart of the issue. There can be no further progress unless you come to grips with this truth.Jesus saves sinners .
Maybe I can see why you do not welcome the verses that are offered to you.
Today 09:38 PM

I can not say it in a way that is not offensive sounding,sorry for that, but i really think this is crucial to understand.

I might start a new thread as you suggest.....if you want to back out I understand, but i am curious how you could post what you did...could you explain it for me. Did you not mean to post that?? or do you honestly believe it the way you posted it??

 

[Winman]

Winman, could you respond to this or explain your statement please?
you posted it-


I might start a new thread as you suggest.....if you want to back out I understand, but i am curious how you could post what you did...could you explain it for me. Did you not mean to post that?? or do you honestly believe it the way you posted it??

When I said sinner, I meant as opposed to saint. An unsaved person is called a sinner in the scriptures, or the wicked. Saved people are called saints or the righteous.

You are a Bible scholar and did not know this?

All saved people were once unsaved sinners. But once having trusted Christ they are called saints or the righteous.

So, when I said no sinner is filled with the Spirit, I was speaking of an unsaved person.

And I am not saying saved persons never sin, we often do. Nevertheless we are called saints or the righteous.

Now, you answer me, if John the Baptist was an evil sinner in his mother's womb, then how could he be filled with the Holy Ghost (Luke 1:15)?

 

[Iconoclast]

When I said sinner, I meant as opposed to saint. An unsaved person is called a sinner in the scriptures, or the wicked. Saved people are called saints or the righteous.

You are a Bible scholar and did not know this?

All saved people were once unsaved sinners. But once having trusted Christ they are called saints or the righteous.

So, when I said no sinner is filled with the Spirit, I was speaking of an unsaved person.

And I am not saying saved persons never sin, we often do. Nevertheless we are called saints or the righteous.

Now, you answer me, if John the Baptist was an evil sinner in his mother's womb, then how could he be filled with the Holy Ghost (Luke 1:15)?

Thank you for your response and clarification...as it was originally posted it was not within the realm of the faith.
Yes, I will answer.John being conceived in sin,and having died in Adam was a guilty sinner at his conception as all men are. God in order to fulfill His eternal purpose granted John to filled from the womb ,subsequent to his conception,and prior to his birth.This is the work of the Spirit of God which like the wind we do not see.Jn 3.
This by the way would be the same way God can and does save all elect infants dying in infancy, and mentally defective persons.
He grants repentance and faith to all His elect. When he does it is His buisness. John was not sinless, yet he was saved by God at an early age.
So yes....an unsaved person who remains in Adam does not have the Spirit.
An unsaved person whom God saves is filled by the Spirit-

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his

Is this the only verse we can agree on?

 

[Robert Snow]

If God chooses who will be saved, He obviously knows who will believe in the future.

This is one of my basic problems with Calvinism. I say God chooses based on who will freely trust in Christ. I have yet to see this refuted.

 

[Robert Snow]

I was speaking of Augustine.

I agree. Calvin followed the teachings of a heretic, Augustine. No wonder Calvinism is so problematic for a bible-believer.

 

[glfredrick]

This is one of my basic problems with Calvinism. I say God chooses based on who will freely trust in Christ. I have yet to see this refuted.

Let's test your proposition...

A. One must become a believer
B. God then sees that person as a believer
C. God elects the believer into salvation
D. So, one must be a Christian in order to become a Christian

Argument is circular and does not compute.

How about:

A. Man is lost in sin and totally depraved
B. God draws the lost one to Himself
C. The Holy Spirit regenerates the lost believer
D. Who becomes a Christian

 

[Rippon]

I agree. Calvin followed the teachings of a heretic, Augustine. No wonder Calvinism is so problematic for a bible-believer.

I am sure you are quite knowledgeable and have read Calvin's works in a comprehensive fashion to make that kind of wild assertion.

I asked Winman a question which he hasn't answered.I'll ask you the same thing. Do you think Augustine was a damnable heretic,or a godly man who was off doctrinally in some matters --but yet indeed a saved person?

 

[David Lamb]

I agree. Calvin followed the teachings of a heretic, Augustine. No wonder Calvinism is so problematic for a bible-believer.

Robert, isn't that argument a circular one? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying:

1. Calvinism is problematic (so you don't believe it)
2. Calvin followed the teachings of Augustine of Hippo.
3. Augustine must have been a heretic to teach the things that Calvin later followed.
4. Calvinism is problematic because Calvin followed the teachings of a heretic.
​

Incidentally, you say that Calvinism is so problematic for a bible-believer. I'm a bible believer, and I don't find Calvinism problematic.

 

[glfredrick]

Robert, isn't that argument a circular one? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying:

1. Calvinism is problematic (so you don't believe it)
2. Calvin followed the teachings of Augustine of Hippo.
3. Augustine must have been a heretic to teach the things that Calvin later followed.
4. Calvinism is problematic because Calvin followed the teachings of a heretic.
​

Incidentally, you say that Calvinism is so problematic for a bible-believer. I'm a bible believer, and I don't find Calvinism problematic.

Me either... Or the entire staff of a seminary that trains thousands of pastors and missionaries and sends them out into the world... Nor Piper, MacArthur, Spurgeon, Edwards, and thousands upon thousands of other pastors, churches, and missionaries that have gone into the world with the gospel. In fact, it would seem that those with Winman's point of view are a distinct minority in all of Christendom -- all their historical revisionism aside.

 

[psalms109:31]

Election

There is a Baptist in History that believe everything Calvinist believe, but when the Gospel is preached anyone can come.

We must realize the depravity of man and men God elected to be the one's who will prepare the way for Christ Jesus and the one's who would be the first fruit, the Elect. I will not argue with this the one's God choose before the foundation of the world.

Then out of this very elect there was one's who could not enter because of unbelief not for being not chosen. Disown for they disowned Jesus. Then you have non-elect included with the believing elect when the heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed. Then you have the elect who was chosen but cut out not able to enter for unbelief being able to be grafted back in if they do not continue in their unbelief.

The elect in Christ Jesus not outside of Him is made up of one people from every tribe nation of those who trust in Jesus.

The words of Jesus is Spirit and life through those word anyone can come after Christ is lifted up those who listen and learn who trust in the name of the Lord, the meek and humble.

Calvinist five point is incomplete not wrong.

The words of Jesus which is Spirit and life and not His own, but the Fathers will draw all men not to incline their hearts to believe but place before them life and death not just one road but two, to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned. Those who listen and learn will come.

Now is the time where the dead will hear His voice. This is what He has placed before them and us to believe trust in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned.

I am not talking about some mystery anymore the mystery has been revealed through Jesus Christ the world's only hope.

Our debt is paid by Christ Jesus those who trust in Jesus which trust is not work to God. We did not have to pay our debt for sin which is death, this is why we are saved by grace and is a gift. You paying your own debt that is not salvation, but death eternal.

 

[jbh28]

This is one of my basic problems with Calvinism. I say God chooses based on who will freely trust in Christ. I have yet to see this refuted.

Why don't you share with us the passages that say that God chose us based on who would choose him.