Defending the truth against the primary so called "proof texts" against Calvinism

[Ron Wood]

The main difference between Calvinism and Arminianism is that Calvinists start with God and work down to man and the Arminian starts with man and works down to God.

 

[Skandelon]

The main difference between Calvinism and Arminianism is that Calvinists start with God and work down to man and the Arminian starts with man and works down to God.

These types of quips serve no good purpose. They offer nothing to the discussion nor provide rational and civil discourse about the subject at hand. They seem to be "trollish" in nature and make me wonder if the author will actually stick around for any length of time to defend the positions behind their drive by insults.

 

[convicted1]

The main difference between Calvinism and Arminianism is that Calvinists start with God and work down to man and the Arminian starts with man and works down to God.

Uh, Brother, I totally disagree with this statement. I am not "A", though I tend to "lean" closer that way than to "C". It took God to convict me of my sins. It took God to place the Godly sorrow in my life, and it took God to save my dead soul. How is that starting with man, and work down to God. Granted, I do believe it is up to us to "choose to hear or forebear", but God starts and finishes the salvation process.

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Jam. 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.


So, a person can hear the WORD all their adult life and if they don't "do something about it", they will die eternally lost. I call this responsibilty.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[quantumfaith]

These types of quips serve no good purpose. They offer nothing to the discussion nor provide rational and civil discourse about the subject at hand. They seem to be "trollish" in nature and make me wonder if the author will actually stick around for any length of time to defend the positions behind their drive by insults.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[quantumfaith]

the main difference between calvinism and arminianism is that calvinists start with god and work down to man and the arminian starts with man and works down to god.

 

[Ron Wood]

These types of quips serve no good purpose. They offer nothing to the discussion nor provide rational and civil discourse about the subject at hand. They seem to be "trollish" in nature and make me wonder if the author will actually stick around for any length of time to defend the positions behind their drive by insults.

Try me. What I offered adds to the discussion by giving a basis, in simple terms, to the difference between us. Intellectuals want to muddy the water with great swelling words but simplicity will do.

 

[Ron Wood]

Uh, Brother, I totally disagree with this statement. I am not "A", though I tend to "lean" closer that way than to "C". It took God to convict me of my sins. It took God to place the Godly sorrow in my life, and it took God to save my dead soul. How is that starting with man, and work down to God. Granted, I do believe it is up to us to "choose to hear or forebear", but God starts and finishes the salvation process.

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Jam. 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.


So, a person can hear the WORD all their adult life and if they don't "do something about it", they will die eternally lost. I call this responsibilty.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

Your very argument puts man at the top. You say that God did the work but then destroy what you say by making man the final and therefore focus, determiner of eteranl destiny. Man's responsibility is not derived from his ability but from his being a creature. I am responsible to do what it right not because I am able to do what is right but because it is right.

 

[convicted1]

Your very argument puts man at the top. You say that God did the work but then destroy what you say by making man the final and therefore focus, determiner of eteranl destiny. Man's responsibility is not derived from his ability but from his being a creature. I am responsible to do what it right not because I am able to do what is right but because it is right.

Brother, what part of this verse do you have contention with???

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

It says the doers of the law shall be justified, and not the hearer. You can hear the Word preached your whole life, and die lost...is this not correct?? We, as finite creatures, can do nothing until He calls. After He calls, its up to us to say "yea Lord" or "nay Lord". Do you agree with this??

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[MB]

The main difference between Calvinism and Arminianism is that Calvinists start with God and work down to man and the Arminian starts with man and works down to God.

The truth is your statement ment to insult Arminians, fails in it's attempt. There are no Arminians here that I know of. Only noncalvinist who are not Arminians. Calvinist here ignorantly believe there are only two kinds of doctrines here. There's and there off spring known as Arminianism.

My faith didn't come out of the corrupt Catholic church.
MB

 

[Ron Wood]

Brother, what part of this verse do you have contention with???

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

It says the doers of the law shall be justified, and not the hearer. You can hear the Word preached your whole life, and die lost...is this not correct?? We, as finite creatures, can do nothing until He calls. After He calls, its up to us to say "yea Lord" or "nay Lord". Do you agree with this??

i am I AM's!!

Willis

The passage is used out of context in your argument and has nothing to do with ability. It is actualloy proving inability. But to answer your question: Yes we do willingly come to Christ but only after He has caused us to know what we are and given us life. I willingly chose Christ after He made see that I had no other choice. He opened my heart and caused me to see the evil and depravity that I am and then showed me Christ. No Calvinist denies that man has a will but that man's will is a slave to his nature. Natural man's nature is death and darkness. He cannot see himself or God and doesn't want to. Those whom He gives life see their need because He has given life. We have a new will that also acts according to the new nature that is the new creation in Christ.

 

[Skandelon]

Try me.

Ok. What or Who is origin of sin?

For example, what caused the first child molester to come up with that intent to sin? Either the intent originated with God making him the author of the sin, or the intent originated with man making God informed by something man originated. Which is it? Or is there another alternative you would like to submit?

 

[Winman]

Here are just some of the doctrines Augustine held, I will let you decide for yourself if they are scriptural.

1- Baptismal Regeneration
2- Baptism was necessary for salvation and to receive grace.
3- The real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
4- Lord's Supper was necessary for salvation.
5- Authority of the Catholic Church.
6- Penance
7- Believed the Apocrypha was scripture
8- Mary was a perpetual virgin
9- Apostlic tradition and succession (Popes)
10- Purgatory
11- Communion of Saints (dead saints could pray and intercede for living believers)
12- Believed the Mass was a sacrifice.

This is just a sample of the many beliefs Augustine held, he also held many fantastic pagan beliefs. This was Calvin's greatest influence, quoted many times by Calvin in his writings.

 

[jbh28]

Here are just some of the doctrines Augustine held, I will let you decide for yourself if they are scriptural.

1- Baptismal Regeneration
2- Baptism was necessary for salvation and to receive grace.
3- The real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
4- Lord's Supper was necessary for salvation.
5- Authority of the Catholic Church.
6- Penance
7- Believed the Apocrypha was scripture
8- Mary was a perpetual virgin
9- Apostlic tradition and succession (Popes)
10- Purgatory
11- Communion of Saints (dead saints could pray and intercede for living believers)
12- Believed the Mass was a sacrifice.

This is just a sample of the many beliefs Augustine held, he also held many fantastic pagan beliefs. This was Calvin's greatest influence, quoted many times by Calvin in his writings.

and your point? I don't base my doctrine of who believes it. I could care less what Augustine believes or what Calvin believes.

 

[MB]

and your point? I don't base my doctrine of who believes it. I could care less what Augustine believes or what Calvin believes.

Calvinism is like a reed in the wind it wavers all over the place. This I believe is why they now want to be called reformers. Reformers of what ? you may ask. Why the Catholic Church. Funny the Bible says you can't get good fruit from a bad tree nor can you get bad fruit from a good tree. Calvinism came from the Catholic Church and this is what you are claiming to reform by being called reformers.
MB

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Calvinism is like a reed in the wind it wavers all over the place. This I believe is why they now want to be called reformers. Reformers of what ? you may ask. Why the Catholic Church. Funny the Bible says you can't get good fruit from a bad tree nor can you get bad fruit from a good tree. Calvinism came from the Catholic Church and this is what you are claiming to reform by being called reformers.
MB

Ahhhh, duh!

 

[jbh28]

Calvinism is like a reed in the wind it wavers all over the place. This I believe is why they now want to be called reformers. Reformers of what ? you may ask. Why the Catholic Church. Funny the Bible says you can't get good fruit from a bad tree nor can you get bad fruit from a good tree. Calvinism came from the Catholic Church and this is what you are claiming to reform by being called reformers.
MB

So a catholic is doomed then! no hope of reforming them.