-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Define: Legalist
- Thread starter Rufus_1611
- Start date
Rufus_1611
New Member
dan e. said:Yeah, that is true. What I agreed with was that there is an "improper fixation" on those laws. Even Jesus "broke" the Sabaath, but what was His response to His accusers. He held them in check on their understanding, their "improper fixation", on what the Sabaath was and meant for.
There are laws in the Bible, and people will always misunderstand them. Likewise, people have prescriptions of how Christians should look and act, and if believers don't adhere to those prescriptions, then they are "sinning", or are "wrong". That is legalism.
What you call legalism, I consider to be discernment. I see Christians fornicating, engaging in idolatry, witchcraft, drunkenness, nakedness and a whole lot of other stuff the world is doing and the Holy Bible says not to do. Is it legalism to expect folks to repent of such things? Was Paul being a legalist in 1 Corinthians 5?
Steven2006
New Member
Rufus_1611 said:What you call legalism, I consider to be discernment. I see Christians fornicating, engaging in idolatry, witchcraft, drunkenness, nakedness and a whole lot of other stuff the world is doing and the Holy Bible says not to do. Is it legalism to expect folks to repent of such things? Was Paul being a legalist in 1 Corinthians 5?
I would like to see the quotes where anyone called the condemning those things legalistic?
Rufus_1611 said:What you call legalism, I consider to be discernment. I see Christians fornicating, engaging in idolatry, witchcraft, drunkenness, nakedness and a whole lot of other stuff the world is doing and the Holy Bible says not to do. Is it legalism to expect folks to repent of such things? Was Paul being a legalist in 1 Corinthians 5?
It is not legalism to expect people to repent of sins. I wasn't even hinting at that! I hope you don't think that I was.
Rufus_1611
New Member
Cool...sounds like we're aligned then.dan e. said:It is not legalism to expect people to repent of sins. I wasn't even hinting at that! I hope you don't think that I was.
Rufus_1611 said:Cool...sounds like we're aligned then.
We probably are. I think when the term is used on this board, it is mostly referring to an improper fixation on rules or laws.
The way I interpret the term "legalism(ist)" is a person who dwells on the "letter of the law" rather than the "spirit of the law." This can also include interpretive issues of the "forgotten" commandments ("Women shalt not wear pants.") or "secondary issues." (worship style, womwn in ministry, etc.) Things are often seen as prescrptive rather than descriptive.
Often these people look to the rule rather than the person.
Often these people look to the rule rather than the person.
richard n koustas
New Member
Here are some of my favorite examples that i have heard from the pulpit:EdSutton said:As far as giving a poignant and concise definition that would cover all bases, I'm not sure that I, personally, can do that concisely. However, as to what "legalism" is, in the words of the late Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, "I know it when I see it."
Ed
thou shalt not even think about parking thy car in the parking lot of an establishment that sell or serves alchohol.
Thou shalt not have a myspace, unless you are an adult male over the age of 24.
Rufus_1611
New Member
A pastor who attempts to lead his flock away from temptation is a legalist?richard n koustas said:Here are some of my favorite examples that i have heard from the pulpit:
thou shalt not even think about parking thy car in the parking lot of an establishment that sell or serves alchohol.
Thou shalt not have a myspace, unless you are an adult male over the age of 24.
Rufus_1611 said:A pastor who attempts to lead his flock away from temptation is a legalist?
There is a difference between leading them away from temptation, and enforcing extra-biblical guidelines that you think removes them from temptation.
Rufus_1611
New Member
dan e. said:There is a difference between leading them away from temptation, and enforcing extra-biblical guidelines that you think removes them from temptation.
Isn't a pastor responsible for watching over your soul and don't they have to give an account to God for their leadership? Wouldn't the pastor be in error if he said, "No problem, go to that liquor establishment and flirt with drunkenness and if you're a child play on Myspace and flirt with all of the sin that goes on in that arena"?
Rufus_1611 said:Isn't a pastor responsible for watching over your soul and don't they have to give an account to God for their leadership? Wouldn't the pastor be in error if he said, "No problem, go to that liquor establishment and flirt with drunkenness and if you're a child play on Myspace and flirt with all of the sin that goes on in that arena"?
SO it's the pastor's responsibility if a church member sins? That kind of destroys priesthood of the believer. Also, he needs to mention any and all possible pitfalls? I'm glad I'm off the hook as a believer.
Rufus_1611 said:Isn't a pastor responsible for watching over your soul and don't they have to give an account to God for their leadership? Wouldn't the pastor be in error if he said, "No problem, go to that liquor establishment and flirt with drunkenness and if you're a child play on Myspace and flirt with all of the sin that goes on in that arena"?
You are adding to what was commented on. Why do you do that? It makes it appear that myself, or another poster, was talking about the extremes that you bring up?
A Pastor is responsible...but don't forget that we are all responsible for ourselves. A Pastor's leadership and guidance crosses lines when he attempts to enforce extra-biblical mandates (such as not parking in a lot owned by a place that sells liquor), and writes it off as leading you from temptation. That is legalism. He is improperly fixated on his own ideas of avoiding temptation.
dan e. said:There is a difference between leading them away from temptation, and enforcing extra-biblical guidelines that you think removes them from temptation.
There is avery big difference between these two. Point two is definitely legalism.
Rufus_1611
New Member
The individual is responsible for their personal sin. They are also responsible to submit themselves and obey them that have the rule over them, such as a pastor. For a pastor watches over their souls and a pastor must give account. Thus, the pastor should give warnings and instructions for certain things. Perhaps he should warn the flock to stay away from liquor establishments and Myspace and perhaps the sheep should trust and obey rather than accusing the pastor of being a legalist?tenor said:SO it's the pastor's responsibility if a church member sins? That kind of destroys priesthood of the believer.
"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." - Hebrews 13:17
Rufus_1611 said:A pastor who attempts to lead his flock away from temptation is a legalist?
Very definitely this is possible.
Let me give an example of legalism - A pastor insists on haveing Sunday night services on a "family" day (Mother's Day, Father's Day, Easter Sunday night, etc.) giving a a huge guilt trip on those spending time with our families. Legalism - PM church attendance is more important than spending time together as a family.
You guessed it, I'm not very fond of Sunday night services. In most I've been a part of they're pretty bad if not counterproductive.
Rufus_1611 said:The individual is responsible for their personal sin. They are also responsible to submit themselves and obey them that have the rule over them, such as a pastor. For a pastor watches over their souls and a pastor must give account. Thus, the pastor should give warnings and instructions for certain things. Perhaps he should warn the flock to stay away from liquor establishments and Myspace and perhaps the sheep should trust and obey rather than accusing the pastor of being a legalist?
"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." - Hebrews 13:17
That does not mean they should submit and obey extra-biblical mandates. You are twisting scripture to support a person's obedience their pastor. Sounds power-hungry to make others look and act like you want them to look and act.
Let's get back to the examples used to begin with:
In No. 1 the pastor is not saying you can't do something. He's saying don't even think about doing something. It would be like saying thou shalt not even think about parking thy car in the parking lot of an establisment where men/women disrobe themselves for monetary gain.
Is that legalism. Surely we wouldn't think so.
Now No. 2 does cross the line, because it is a demand placed on a person where the pastor has no right.
For example I know a pastor that told one of his attendees that this person could not speak to or communicate with anyone else in that congregation about certain topics.
Now is that legalism? Does the pastor have the right to say who a person can and can not speak with and what that person can and can not speak about?
thou shalt not even think about parking thy car in the parking lot of an establishment that sell or serves alchohol.
Thou shalt not have a myspace, unless you are an adult male over the age of 24.
In No. 1 the pastor is not saying you can't do something. He's saying don't even think about doing something. It would be like saying thou shalt not even think about parking thy car in the parking lot of an establisment where men/women disrobe themselves for monetary gain.
Is that legalism. Surely we wouldn't think so.
Now No. 2 does cross the line, because it is a demand placed on a person where the pastor has no right.
For example I know a pastor that told one of his attendees that this person could not speak to or communicate with anyone else in that congregation about certain topics.
Now is that legalism? Does the pastor have the right to say who a person can and can not speak with and what that person can and can not speak about?
J. Jump said:Let's get back to the examples used to begin with:
In No. 1 the pastor is not saying you can't do something. He's saying don't even think about doing something. It would be like saying thou shalt not even think about parking thy car in the parking lot of an establisment where men/women disrobe themselves for monetary gain.
Is that legalism. Surely we wouldn't think so.
Now No. 2 does cross the line, because it is a demand placed on a person where the pastor has no right.
For example I know a pastor that told one of his attendees that this person could not speak to or communicate with anyone else in that congregation about certain topics.
Now is that legalism? Does the pastor have the right to say who a person can and can not speak with and what that person can and can not speak about?
Thought policing isn't legalism, but a specific rule is?
Rufus_1611
New Member
Can you not spend time with your family at church? I wouldn't think that spending time with your family and spending time at church would be exclusive of one another.tenor said:Very definitely this is possible.
Let me give an example of legalism - A pastor insists on haveing Sunday night services on a "family" day (Mother's Day, Father's Day, Easter Sunday night, etc.) giving a a huge guilt trip on those spending time with our families. Legalism - PM church attendance is more important than spending time together as a family.
I'm sorry to hear that. I love assembling with the saints and I don't consider it to be legalism if my pastor asks me to show up.You guessed it, I'm not very fond of Sunday night services. In most I've been a part of they're pretty bad if not counterproductive.