Define...

[Ray Berrian]

Matthew 13:3-9 indicates there will be different responses in human hearts. We do not know all the reasons why many reject but they do. For some it is the pride of life, money, a strong tradition other than Christianity, love of their sins, a belief taught to some that there is no God. This will give you an idea as to why some reject Jesus. For the Rich Young Ruler it was his love of money.

 

[tyndale1946]

Ray Berrian said:

Apparently, you have no defense for the fact that your view makes God the One who loves some and favors them at the expense of the majority.

If I may be so blunt it is the Arminian brethren that are limiting the elect of God according to the accept... reject theology and are making the elect of God a minority. You need to read Revelation where the redeemed of God are as the sands of the sea and the stars of the sky... an unnumerable host know man can number. That is ELECTION!... Doesn't sound like anybodies name on this forum is left out. The Primitive Baptist NEVER limit our God... He will save ALL HIS ELECT CHILDREN!... You may come know the Lord when you are young... or you may come know him when you are middle aged... or you may come to know him when you are at the sunset of your life! He will not lose a one... Those who don't know him will NEVER know him because they don't belong to him. They are DEAD to him and HE to them. Those who are his WILL be drawn to HIM because they belong to HIM and not another... Brother Glen

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Matthew 13:3-9 indicates there will be different responses in human hearts. We do not know all the reasons why many reject but they do. For some it is the pride of life, money, a strong tradition other than Christianity, love of their sins, a belief taught to some that there is no God. This will give you an idea as to why some reject Jesus. For the Rich Young Ruler it was his love of money.

So, according to your reasoning, those who do "accept" Jesus Christ are born with a predisposition to things of the Spirit and will come to repentance because they are born that way, is that it ?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Apparently, you have no defense for the fact that your view makes God the One who loves some and favors them at the expense of the majority.

God's love is unfeigned and His Divine nature is without impediment.

God's love is unfeigned. I believe he loved the world. His divine nature has no impediment, not even your own views of what he should do.

God does not need my defense. He does what he does. Romans 2 addresses the issue of fairness. It says that we have no right to question God. People claim that if my sin brings glory to God then he can't punish it. Paul says Far to the contrary. What God does is fair. If you do not think God is fair, then it is you who needs to change, not God.

You cannot subject God to your own notions of what he should or should not do. God has chosen some for salvation and the others he has left to sin and willfully reject the truth. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend??

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Apparently, you have no defense for the fact that your view makes God the One who loves some and favors them at the expense of the majority.

Ray,

I must insist in the future that you insert a caveat that I, as a Calvinist(Spurgeonite) do not believe a majority of people will be lost - counting infants that die, for example. Also, as postmillennialist I believe there will be a long period of time during which most those living will be Christians.

Thanks.

Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

 

[Ray Berrian]

You are correct that the elect will be as 'the stars of the heavens and numbered as 'the sand of the sea.' I hope so; the civilization starting with Adam and Eve is at least 6,000-7,000 years since creation. There truly will be a large number of the elect. But, remember Jesus said, by comparison, to every person born on this earth throughout all time, the elect will be only 'the few.' [Matthew 7:14] How many billions of people are on the earth now? How many 'ball park figure' would you say might be saved at this time?

 

[tyndale1946]

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Ray show me one place where it says that the straight gate leads to eternal life... It doesn't lead to eternal life but to life in following Jesus Christ... Another one you brethren love to use Is many are called but few are chosen... Stating again that pertains to eternal life... again directed at the followers and disciples of Jesus Christ. I'm a firm believer in the doctrine of free will after you have taken up your cross and followed the Lord in obedience. If you are obedient you will eat the good of the land but if you rebel you will suffer for your rebellion both of these will happen in time not eternity... Brother Glen

 

[pinoybaptist]

Ray:
Even assuming for the sake of discussion that statistically only "few" will be in heaven, the wonder is that there will be any at all. If God were to extract justice and not exercise mercy men
will not be in heaven at all !

 

[Ray Berrian]

pinoybaptist,

I absolutely do not believe that anyone has any predisposition to the things of God. All sinners are on an equal beginning in this life. Some resist the grace and calling of the Spirit, while others believe and find everlasting life. [John 5:40 & Acts 7:51--for example] Every one who resists the grace of God has their own reasons. They will have an eternity in Hell to think about why they refused to invite Christ into their lives.

 

[Ray Berrian]

pinoybaptist,

I agree 100% with your August 12th. post. Thank God that He looks at us with mercy and through the atonement of our Lord Jesus.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
How many billions of people are on the earth now? How many 'ball park figure' would you say might be saved at this time?

1) There are about 6,000,000,000 billion people on the earth presently.

2) The number now is not the issue. The issue is how many will be saved after all is done after the golden age of the church and Christ returns on the final day to judge the world.

Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

 

[Primitive Baptist]

The Calvinist position does not limit God as does the Arminian position. Primitive Baptists are not opposed to the spreading of the Gospel so long as it is done by Biblical means. By Biblical means I mean the evangelist is called and directed by the Spirit of the Lord. However, Primitive Baptists do not believe God is helpless to save souls without the efforts of His sinful creatures. Arminians, on the other hand, teach there is no salvation where there is no Gospel preacher. That, my friend, is limiting God! If God loves all His creatures equally and died for each one equally, it appears God would also give all an equal opportunity to hear the Gospel. Experience does not support that claim because multitudes die every day without hearing of the precious Son of God. The hands of the Almighty are tied because He can do nothing unless we do. Does that sound like the God of the Scriptures who declared, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" (Isaiah 46:10)? Certainly not. God said, "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh" (Ezekiel 11:19). I do not see the works of man anywhere in that declaration. I read the words of God that He would give one heart, and He would give a new spirit, and He would take out the "stony heart," and He would give "an heart of flesh." No where in that passage do I see anything that even gives the slightest hint that man would play any role whatever in this process. The Baptists of old stood for regeneration without means, and there is no need to depart from what the Baptist forefathers taught despite the missionary priestcraft of the religious world because it is the truth! The parable of Matthew 13:3-9 clearly teaches the soil (i.e., heart) must be already prepared before the Gospel is received and brings forth fruit.

[ August 12, 2002, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
1) There are about 6,000,000,000 billion people on the earth presently.

Wow ... that's lot ... But I think you mean 6 billion which is 6,000,000,000,000 (I think ... I get lost in the zeros) rather than 6,000,000,000 billion.

 

[Primitive Baptist]

six billion=6,000,000,000

[ August 12, 2002, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]

 

[tyndale1946]

I don't know about a six billion that seems to be such a small number but now a googol that's more in line with the unnumerable host I'm talking about... 1 followed by 100 zeroes. Six billion is just a handful to God... HE WILL SAVE ALL HIS CHILDREN!... So brethren there is no argument!... Brother Glen

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Primitive Baptist:
six billion=6,000,000,000

We'll figure it out sometime here. I couldn't remember if billion came before or after trillion in the zeroes count. I haven't added up my portfolio in a while so I am not used to dealing with these kinds of numbers

 

[Ray Berrian]

Primtive Baptist,

Your view of Arminian Christians is very limited. Just as Calvinists who have shades of belief so to in our camp. I believe a tract laying somewhere may be picked up by a non-believer and then that soul can be brought to saving faith without a preacher or any other human personality. The truth is what prompts people to faith as the Spirit of God convicts and convinces people.

Maybe I misunderstood you.

 

[Ray Berrian]

In Bible college I remember studying World Religions. Some of the major belief systems are Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism and the other isms. Think of all the new cults beyond the Jehovah Witnesses, and the Mormons. My understanding is there are many in California. How many billions of lost souls does that cover in our day? I agree this is not the issue totally. When all the souls that will stand before the Lord at the Great White Throne Judgment we can be assured that it will be the vast majority of human beings. We as Christians are in the minority.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
When all the souls that will stand before the Lord at the Great White Throne Judgment we can be assured that it will be the vast majority of human beings. We as Christians are in the minority.

I am not assured, Ray. But then again I have an eschatology of hope.

Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

 

[tyndale1946]

Ray said:

When all the souls that will stand before the Lord at the Great White Throne Judgment we can be assured that it will be the vast majority of human beings. We as Christians are in the minority.

... What Bible are you reading?... "That's Not What My KJV Says!... Brother(saved by grace)Glen