Defining Pentecostal Doctrine

[Wesley Briggman]

This was not an outpouring. It began at Azusa st. when Wm. Seymour thought his native african voodoo tongues were the same as bible tongues. He tried to mix them into his Wesley Methodism in Anderson Indiana through the Church of God who excommunicated him for it. He tried again in Los Angeles and the Assemblies of God came about because of it. They attracted many at an emotional level as they continue doing today. But it certainly has more to do with voodoo and Wesley Methodism than anything else. Loosley quoted from;
Pagan Pentecostalism: Its Roots: Sex, Sin & Slavery First Edition
by Curtis Edwards https://www.amazon.com/Pagan-Pentecostalism-Its-Roots-Slavery/dp/1500858080
Also see;
https://www.dana.org/article/speaking-in-tongues-glossolalia-and-stress-reduction/
And; Religious affiliation and psychiatric disorder among Protestant baby boomers. - PubMed - NCBI

Thanks for providing the references. I will investigate all of them!

 

[Marooncat79]

I don't mind recommending Baptist churches. I had a book ministry at work in which some guy, after reading one of the testimonial books, wanted to get saved but not in my Pentecostal Holiness church.

I would ask if you or he understand salvation at all. Salvation is not something that is dictated by the affairs or conditions of man!

I had a friend I knew as Ray who was baptist, so I took him to a Baptist church.

Does it mayter where one is saved? Can man manipulate the plans and power of God?

Well, they had a Franklin Graham testimonial film that Sunday night and my friend goes up to get saved...

Could he have been saved in the pew?

Only... There is no altar!

Does scripture require an “altar”? Wasnt the “altar” done away with at Calvary?

Some guy gets my friend and takes him to a Sunday School room and begins to talk all that doctrine.... Now get the picture... Here is a guy ready to receive Christ with tears running down his cheek and he is getting doctrinalized!

Good! Shouldnt we try to make sure that people understand who Jesus is, why the need Him, and what God requires?

I was thinking to myself for the crying out loud say the sinners prayer!

Where do you see the sinners prayer in scripture?

Let him acknowledge Christ so he can go through to salvation!

 

[Adonia]

I believe hearing from God and experiencing the actual Holy Spirit is a seven step process... And from the Azusa Street revival....

A 7 step process? Now where have I heard of the number 7 when it comes to a doctrine before? That's right, I remember - there is a doctrine that has 7 sacraments. This sure looks like someone stole the idea from orthodox Christian teachings.

 

[Marooncat79]

That sounds like Process Theology

 

[Dave G]

I don't mind recommending Baptist churches. I had a book ministry at work in which some guy, after reading one of the testimonial books, wanted to get saved but not in my Pentecostal Holiness church.

Where does Scripture use the term, "get saved"?
Do you mean, do something to gain God's favor?

I had a friend I knew as Ray who was baptist, so I took him to a Baptist church. Well, they had a Franklin Graham testimonial film that Sunday night and my friend goes up to get saved...

Huh?

Only... There is no altar!

Like, in a temple or something?

There are no altars in God's churches.
That was all done away with when the vail of the temple was rent in two.

I'm also not aware of any of the churches in the book of Acts or the epistles ever having one.

Some guy gets my friend and takes him to a Sunday School room and begins to talk all that doctrine....

Question:

Was the word of God present ( or had been preached ) in all of this talking?

 

[Dave G]

Now get the picture... Here is a guy ready to receive Christ with tears running down his cheek and he is getting doctrinalized!

What do you mean, "ready to receive Christ"?

One either receives Christ as a result of the Holy Spirit's work on the heart ( making eternal life a gift ), or one does not.
One is either given the privilege to believe on Him and to suffer for His sake ( Philippians 1:29 ), or one is not.

"Receiving Christ" does not make one born again.
Being born again by the Spirit of Almighty God results in a person receiving Christ instead of automatically rejecting Him, like we all do.

I was thinking to myself for the crying out loud say the sinners prayer!

Where in Scripture did Peter, Paul or the Lord Jesus ever describe something like a "sinner's prayer" ( which, by the way, I grew up being taught this sort of thing in "Traditionalist" Baptist churches ) needing to be recited in order to become saved?

Let him acknowledge Christ so he can go through to salvation!

I'm not aware that salvation is a process that begins with a choice and ends with becoming saved.
While I was taught this in Baptist churches growing up, I do not see Scripture teaching this...

But I do know of a few verses that can be used, by themselves, to demonstrate this.

So, I'm a bit confused...
Where did you get this idea from?

Finally and respectfully,
I remember commenting on this exact paragraph before, some months ago.

If I may ask, what has led you to post it again?

 

[rockytopva]

A 7 step process? Now where have I heard of the number 7 when it comes to a doctrine before? That's right, I remember - there is a doctrine that has 7 sacraments. This sure looks like someone stole the idea from orthodox Christian teachings.

Stole? I would prefer shared!

 

[rockytopva]

What do you mean, "ready to receive Christ"?

One either receives Christ as a result of the Holy Spirit's work on the heart ( making eternal life a gift ), or one does not.
One is either given the privilege to believe on Him and to suffer for His sake ( Philippians 1:29 ), or one is not.

"Receiving Christ" does not make one born again.
Being born again by the Spirit of Almighty God results in a person receiving Christ instead of automatically rejecting Him, like we all do.

Where in Scripture did Peter, Paul or the Lord Jesus ever describe something like a "sinner's prayer" ( which, by the way, I grew up being taught this sort of thing in "Traditionalist" Baptist churches ) needing to be recited in order to become saved?

I'm not aware that salvation is a process that begins with a choice and ends with becoming saved.
While I was taught this in Baptist churches growing up, I do not see Scripture teaching this...

But I do know of a few verses that can be used, by themselves, to demonstrate this.

So, I'm a bit confused...
Where did you get this idea from?

Finally and respectfully,
I remember commenting on this exact paragraph before, some months ago.

If I may ask, what has led you to post it again?

I would have hoped for a Bible in hand and explaining ....

The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. - Romans 10:8-9

And encourage a prayer such as, "Dear God, I know I’m a sinner, and I ask for your forgiveness. I believe Jesus Christ is Your Son. I believe that He died for my sin and that you raised Him to life. I want to trust Him as my Savior and follow Him as Lord, from this day forward. Guide my life and help me to do your will. I pray this in the name of Jesus. Amen."

After that I would explain that’s all it is to it my friend, we believe because of the work of Christ and by the power of the Holy Spirit you are now saved!

 

[rockytopva]

If I have two fears of the times....

1. Cessation of quality Christian conference
2. Abandonment of the teachings of sanctification

 

[1689Dave]

Yes, I agree, we must never forbid speaking in foreign languages. That's what the word glossa means in Greek and what the word "tongue" meant in 1611 to the KJV translators.

In fact, that's what the original Azusa St. Pentecostals believed also. Parham sent missionaries to the field with the instructions that they would not need to study the language of their field, but that God would give them the tongue/language (L. Grant McClung, Jr., ed., Azusa Street and Beyond, 13).

In Acts, the tongue speakers understood what they were saying but needed to translate so others could understand. (Paul gives the details in 1 Cor.) But today's "tongue speakers" do not know what they are saying. They are merely getting a buzz just as voodoo practitioners do when they "speak in tongues".

 

[rockytopva]

In Acts, the tongue speakers understood what they were saying but needed to translate so others could understand. (Paul gives the details in 1 Cor.) But today's "tongue speakers" do not know what they are saying. They are merely getting a buzz just as voodoo practitioners do when they "speak in tongues".

if they accused Christ of being Beelzebub we'll get it too. The North Carolona based Pentecostal Holiness are a wonderful people. No Voodoo here!

 

[rockytopva]

In Acts, the tongue speakers understood what they were saying but needed to translate so others could understand. (Paul gives the details in 1 Cor.) But today's "tongue speakers" do not know what they are saying. They are merely getting a buzz just as voodoo practitioners do when they "speak in tongues".

Bearing false witness is evil by the way.

 

[1689Dave]

if they accused Christ of being Beelzebub we'll get it too. The North Carolona based Pentecostal Holiness are a wonderful people. No Voodoo here!

It's not biblical tongues. But identical to the same tongues voodoo uses. https://www.dana.org/article/speaking-in-tongues-glossolalia-and-stress-reduction/

 

[1689Dave]

Bearing false witness is evil by the way.

You have zero scripture to endorse Pentecostalism. Only eisegesis of the scriptures. I prove everything I say condemning Pentecostalism using scripture. Why not go out and heal some Covid-19 cases. Prove what you believe is true.

 

[John of Japan]

In Acts, the tongue speakers understood what they were saying but needed to translate so others could understand. (Paul gives the details in 1 Cor.) But today's "tongue speakers" do not know what they are saying. They are merely getting a buzz just as voodoo practitioners do when they "speak in tongues".

Yes indeed.

 

[rockytopva]

You have zero scripture to endorse Pentecostalism. Only eisegesis of the scriptures. I prove everything I say condemning Pentecostalism using scripture. Why not go out and heal some Covid-19 cases. Prove what you believe is true.

Pentecostal Holiness church service with my North Carolinean preacher complete with shouting, joy unspeakable and full of glory. There is nothing yankee here!

 

[John of Japan]

For a Pentecostal or Charismatic who believes that they have the gift of tongues just as in Acts, like the Azusa St. folk did, the question is: who got saved? At Pentecost, 3000 people got saved through the tongues/languages ministry. In the vast majority of cases with modern tongues speakers, no one gets saved. They just feel good. That's not Bible Christianity.

Now, rockytopva, our thread founder, appears to be strictly following the Azusa St. principles. Let me ask you directly, rockytopva, do you believe that your tongues are actual languages that can be used to win people to Christ? That is what the Azusa St. folk believed. Buy the book I referenced before, Azusa Stree and Beyond, ed. by L. Grant McClung, Jr. It is a book of essays about the Azusa St. incident (I hesitate to call it a genuine revival) written by Pentecostal/Charismatic scholars, not by opponents of the movement. If you seek truth, it will open your eyes.

Another great book for the true seeker is I Once Spoke in Tongues, by a former Pentecostal Wayne A. Robinson. Here are some quotes from that book.

"As Dave Wilkerson, the well-known minister to addicts, has reported, tongues takes the place of narcotics for many former addicts. For many charismatic Christians, tongues is a spiritual high" (p. 98).

"One of the ironies which blemish the Christian religion is that where the most religious zeal is displayed, the mission of Jesus is often of least concern" (p. 99). So if the Great Commission is not being fulfilled, tongues are useless.

"Worn as a badge of identification, tongues results in walls of division, mistrust, and resentment. Much of the strong negative feeling that many church people hold against tongues speaking can be traced to this misuse" (p. 123). I can testify to this. Charismatics attacked my soul-winning ministry in Japan three times. The un-Christian zeal of those Japanese tongues speakers who never won a soul to Christ completely repelled me.

 

[1689Dave]

Pentecostal Holiness church service with my North Carolinean preacher complete with shouting, joy unspeakable and full of glory. There is nothing yankee here!

Rock concerts generate the same buzz for the carnal minded.

 

[John of Japan]

Pentecostal Holiness church service with my North Carolinean preacher complete with shouting, joy unspeakable and full of glory. There is nothing yankee here!

Who got saved in this service? Anyone?

 

[rockytopva]

Youth ministry AKA Pentecostal Holiness with my North Carolinian minister leading the way .... Examples of wonderful people and ministry.