Defining Pentecostal Doctrine

[rockytopva]

Does God require us to have a second act of grace before we can get sanctified?

I remember growing up Baptist that my pastor used to take us young people to conferences and I would leave such place with a sanctified, clean, feeling. I would say that sanctification needs to happen many times in the life of the believer as we sully up our garments in worldly living.

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15

 

[John of Japan]

I am into claims of being filled with the Holy Spirit as long as it is accompanied with a correct spirit.

I am into claims of being filled with the Holy Spirit as long as they are based on the Bible. According to the Word of God in Acts 4:31, "And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness."

So if one is filled with the Holy Spirit, he or she will witness boldly for Christ, and then of course people will be saved. It should be as obvious as the nose on one's face. They were filled with the Spirit in Acts 2, then spoke in tongues (languages), and 3000 got saved. Glory to God! That's awesome!

Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?- 1 Corinthians 5:6

Is this directed at me? If so, in what way have I glorified anyone other than God? When people are saved, that glorifies God, according to John 15:8--"Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples." I certainly can't save anyone--salvation is a miracle. So if I ask you who got saved when someone was filled with the Holy Spirit (as I have done on this thread), I am seeking to glorify God.

I find myself telling people, "You know the ego of man is not the unction of God?" Which is why I believe foot washings to be a good thing. Something has to be done with that Texas size ego before the camel can go through the eye of the needle and recieve something beneficial from God! In this day of education it is possible to gather education to be awarded doctor, but still have not the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking through the ministry.

Again, is this directed at me? Why are you saying this? In what way have I glorified anyone other than Christ? (Again, salvation glorifies Christ.) Have I lifted up myself in any way on this thread? (And I not only don't have a doctorate, I haven't said what diplomas I do have.)

For the record, other than Japanese language training, I did my study at three fundamental schools that glorified Christ, uplifted being filled with the Spirit, sought to win souls to Jesus Christ, and have sent out 100's of missionaries around the world.

For my part, I think anyone who brags about tongues as the sign of the fullness of the Spirit is not only Biblically wrong, they are glorifying themselves. Tongues speakers generally look down on those who have not spoken in tongues. "Worn as a badge of identification, tongues results in walls of division, mistrust, and resentment. Much of the strong negative feeling that many church people hold against tongues speaking can be traced to this misuse" (Wayne A. Robinson, I Once Spoke in Tongues, p. 123).

 

[John of Japan]

Isn't that the belief that we just need to "let go and let God?"

Not exactly. It's more complicated than that.

 

[Yeshua1]

Not exactly. It's more complicated than that.

Think thaJ they held to an exchanged life, as I give up my life to jesus in order to have Him live his own life and me...

 

[John of Japan]

Think thaJ they held to an exchanged life, as I give up my life to jesus in order to have Him live his own life and me...

Not far off. To put it theologically, positional sanctification is claimed by faith through the finished work of Christ, just as salvation is.

 

[rockytopva]

I am into claims of being filled with the Holy Spirit as long as they are based on the Bible. According to the Word of God in Acts 4:31, "And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness."

So if one is filled with the Holy Spirit, he or she will witness boldly for Christ, and then of course people will be saved. It should be as obvious as the nose on one's face. They were filled with the Spirit in Acts 2, then spoke in tongues (languages), and 3000 got saved. Glory to God! That's awesome!
Is this directed at me? If so, in what way have I glorified anyone other than God? When people are saved, that glorifies God, according to John 15:8--"Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples." I certainly can't save anyone--salvation is a miracle. So if I ask you who got saved when someone was filled with the Holy Spirit (as I have done on this thread), I am seeking to glorify God.

Again, is this directed at me? Why are you saying this? In what way have I glorified anyone other than Christ? (Again, salvation glorifies Christ.) Have I lifted up myself in any way on this thread? (And I not only don't have a doctorate, I haven't said what diplomas I do have.)

For the record, other than Japanese language training, I did my study at three fundamental schools that glorified Christ, uplifted being filled with the Spirit, sought to win souls to Jesus Christ, and have sent out 100's of missionaries around the world.

For my part, I think anyone who brags about tongues as the sign of the fullness of the Spirit is not only Biblically wrong, they are glorifying themselves. Tongues speakers generally look down on those who have not spoken in tongues. "Worn as a badge of identification, tongues results in walls of division, mistrust, and resentment. Much of the strong negative feeling that many church people hold against tongues speaking can be traced to this misuse" (Wayne A. Robinson, I Once Spoke in Tongues, p. 123).

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. - 2 Timothy 3:7
I am saying that is possible not to make the mind heart connection. It is nice to listen in to ministers where the heart is blessed while the mind is enriched. Here is a Baptist preacher I used to listen to who had the ability to do just that...

 

[Yeshua1]

Not far off. To put it theologically, positional sanctification is claimed by faith through the finished work of Christ, just as salvation is.

Would the entire sanctification of John Wesley be the next stage beyond what was held by them?

 

[Yeshua1]

I am into claims of being filled with the Holy Spirit as long as they are based on the Bible. According to the Word of God in Acts 4:31, "And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness."

So if one is filled with the Holy Spirit, he or she will witness boldly for Christ, and then of course people will be saved. It should be as obvious as the nose on one's face. They were filled with the Spirit in Acts 2, then spoke in tongues (languages), and 3000 got saved. Glory to God! That's awesome!
Is this directed at me? If so, in what way have I glorified anyone other than God? When people are saved, that glorifies God, according to John 15:8--"Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples." I certainly can't save anyone--salvation is a miracle. So if I ask you who got saved when someone was filled with the Holy Spirit (as I have done on this thread), I am seeking to glorify God.

Again, is this directed at me? Why are you saying this? In what way have I glorified anyone other than Christ? (Again, salvation glorifies Christ.) Have I lifted up myself in any way on this thread? (And I not only don't have a doctorate, I haven't said what diplomas I do have.)

For the record, other than Japanese language training, I did my study at three fundamental schools that glorified Christ, uplifted being filled with the Spirit, sought to win souls to Jesus Christ, and have sent out 100's of missionaries around the world.

For my part, I think anyone who brags about tongues as the sign of the fullness of the Spirit is not only Biblically wrong, they are glorifying themselves. Tongues speakers generally look down on those who have not spoken in tongues. "Worn as a badge of identification, tongues results in walls of division, mistrust, and resentment. Much of the strong negative feeling that many church people hold against tongues speaking can be traced to this misuse" (Wayne A. Robinson, I Once Spoke in Tongues, p. 123).

I am against theology though that states one must speak in other tongues to evidence now being infilled by the Spirit. or that he has to do a so called second act of grace after saved!

 

[John of Japan]

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. - 2 Timothy 3:7
I am saying that is possible not to make the mind heart connection. It is nice to listen in to ministers where the heart is blessed while the mind is enriched. Here is a Baptist preacher I used to listen to who had the ability to do just that...

You have not been clear. I asked you some clear questions and made some clear statements, and you are still vague.

 

[Yeshua1]

You have not been clear. I asked you some clear questions and made some clear statements, and you are still vague.

I have tried to press him a bit on his theology, to see if he holds to necessity of tongues and second act of grace, but giving bland replies back!

 

[rockytopva]

You have not been clear. I asked you some clear questions and made some clear statements, and you are still vague.

It is important, for the sake of spirituality, that we divide the man into three parts… Physical, Spiritual, and Intellectual. If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2) And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma, the sun is the visible form of E/c2
Mental E/c2 - Our thinking can produce creativeness, light, and good things
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

The Natural E/c2 in the form of mass produces a gravity that attracts other objects
The Intellectual E/c2 produces a gravity that draws us to study
The Spiritual E/c2 also has a gravity that draws and makes religion attractive

It is an amazing thing to find so many studied these days.... Yet there is no mind heart connection. In my Pentecostal Holines denomination the ministers are going after doctorate degrees. Yet there is no improvement in their ministry. Somehow or another they have become like the old King Saul, where, having the Holy Spirit departed from his ministry spends more time in fox holes, while men of faith such as his son Jonathan and David are not understanding the spiritual stalemate, desiring to go after the enemy.

 

[rockytopva]

I have tried to press him a bit on his theology, to see if he holds to necessity of tongues and second act of grace, but giving bland replies back!

The anointing of the Holy Spirit ought to be accompanied with a spiritual fire within the spiritual man. The bad thing about tongues, as in learned theology, is that you can learn it and still possess nothing spiritually.

 

[John of Japan]

The anointing of the Holy Spirir ought to be accompanied with a spiritual fire within the spiritual man. The bad thing about tongues, as in learned theology, is that you can learn it and still possess nothing spiritually.

We finally agree. But you never have commented on my Biblical assertion that souls being saved will follow the fullness of the Spirit.

 

[rockytopva]

We finally agree. But you never have commented on my Biblical assertion that souls being saved will follow the fullness of the Spirit.

I did learn and enjoy the works of Lao-Tzu and Confucius along with my experiences in sanctification.

 

[John of Japan]

I did learn and enjoy the works of Lao-Tzu and Confucius along with my experiences in sanctification.

Totally unconnected with the conversation. Don't know why you say this. Their works have not helped me at all spiritually (and I too have read them).

Japan's society is based on Confucianism, so I have much personal experience with that philosophy. I have also been to China and know about Lao Tzu. (His thinking is depressing.) Now Confucius did believe in the monotheistic God Shang Ti, referring to God with the word Tian, meaning "Heaven." However, Japanese and Chinese people cannot get to Heaven through either philosopher. Salvation demands soul winning Christians.

 

[rockytopva]

Totally unconnected with the conversation. Don't know why you say this. Their works have not helped me at all spiritually (and I too have read them).

Japan's society is based on Confucianism, so I have much personal experience with that philosophy. I have also been to China and know about Lao Tzu. (His thinking is depressing.) Now Confucius did believe in the monotheistic God Shang Ti, referring to God with the word Tian, meaning "Heaven." However, Japanese and Chinese people cannot get to Heaven through either philosopher. Salvation demands soul winning Christians.

True, no salvation in such teachings but I did enjoy them, as well as Plato and Socrates,

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:44

As far as salvation we need the help of the Father, the grace of the lord Jesus Christ, and the power and leading of the Holy Spirit.

 

[rockytopva]

Totally unconnected with the conversation. Don't know why you say this. Their works have not helped me at all spiritually (and I too have read them).

Japan's society is based on Confucianism, so I have much personal experience with that philosophy. I have also been to China and know about Lao Tzu. (His thinking is depressing.) Now Confucius did believe in the monotheistic God Shang Ti, referring to God with the word Tian, meaning "Heaven." However, Japanese and Chinese people cannot get to Heaven through either philosopher. Salvation demands soul winning Christians.

My dad studied to be a Catholic priest before joining the Navy and claiming becoming born again in a Baptist church. Even though there was no salvation in most of what he learned Catholic, yet I do not consider what he learned invaluable.

 

[John of Japan]

My dad studied to be a Catholic priest before joining the Navy and claiming becoming born again in a Baptist church. Even though there was no salvation in most of what he learned Catholic, yet I do not consider what he learned invaluable.

The Catholics have the fundamental doctrines correct, except for salvation, and that is a huge error. Then they add idolatry.

 

[Yeshua1]

The Catholics have the fundamental doctrines correct, except for salvation, and that is a huge error. Then they add idolatry.

They went Officially Apostate at Council of Trent, when they repudiated Pauline Justification...

 

[Yeshua1]

The Catholics have the fundamental doctrines correct, except for salvation, and that is a huge error. Then they add idolatry.

Church of Rome went official Apostate at Council of Trent