Definition of Free Will

[utilyan]

1 John 5

9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

What is REJECTED?

The testimony. What is the testimony? --->That God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.


Free will says. A person can reject this. A person can be against believing "That God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son." This is calling God a LIAR.


Under Calvinism the REJECTOR would be telling the TRUTH. Because #1 no offer was ever made for rejectors to reject. #2 here rejecting is saying Jesus did not die for them would = TRUE under Calvinism.

 

[MB]

Now your changing scripture.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

No man not no Israeli.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Are you really believing that since Jesus spoke these words only to the jews about eternal life and in many other places he was only talking to the jews, that none have any meaning for all mankind? I have never heard such a private interpretation this extreme
.

. No man does come to Christ with out the drawing we all agree on this one point so why question it. You think freewill is imagined because you won't listen to the whole story
2Co_8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.


I grantee you that with out a willing spirit no one is saved. Even you my friend. I resisted Salvation until I was willing. What made me willing? I listen to a preacher who had the right message to convict me. The message made me believe and I asked Christ to save me and He did. I wasn't not just out of the blue saved with out faith like Calvinist. Calvinist believe they must be saved because they can read scripture and study it. I read and studied scripture most of my life at the time and still didn't believe until I heard a preacher's sermon. The Holy Spirit may have planned it that way because I'm sure He was there and He actually convinced me of the truth through that sermon.
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
MB

 

[Particular]

Free will says. A person can reject this. A person can be against believing "That God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son."

I take this as an addition to your earlier statement on free will.

 

[Particular]

. No man does come to Christ with out the drawing we all agree on this one point so why question it.

I grantee you that with out a willing spirit no one is saved.

I resisted Salvation until I was willing. What made me willing? I listen to a preacher who had the right message to convict me.
The message made me believe and I asked Christ to save me and He did. I wasn't not just out of the blue saved with out faith.

I read and studied scripture most of my life at the time and still didn't believe until I heard a preacher's sermon.

The Holy Spirit may have planned it that way because I'm sure He was there and He actually convinced me of the truth through that sermon.
MB

MB, I removed all your inflammatory comments so we can see what you believe regarding free will. There is no need to attack a different view here. Just share what free will means...how you define free will.

 

[MB]

MB, I removed all your inflammatory comments so we can see what you believe regarding free will. There is no need to attack a different view here. Just share what free will means...how you define free will.

This is a debate forum. I know the Lord blinded you so you couldn't see that.Or maybe you were already blind to it.
MB

 

[Particular]

This is a debate forum. I know the Lord blinded you so you couldn't see that.Or maybe you were already blind to it.
MB

I am the OP, I have asked for a specific presentation. If you wish to debate, start a different thread.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

This is a debate forum. I know the Lord blinded you so you couldn't see that.Or maybe you were already blind to it.
MB

Generally, it is a debate forum...but, Particular hasn't asserted a debatable proposition.
Thus, there's nothing to debate.
He claims he merely wants to "listen"...
Let's extend to him the courtesy of responding to his question with our definition...and them let him challenge it if, and only when, he chooses.

He is asking for OUR definition but, he isn't challenging it......yet....

Let's provide it, and let him choose to extend the O.P. into a debate on that definition if he chooses....it is his thread.

 

[Particular]

Generally, it is a debate forum...but, Particular hasn't asserted a debatable proposition.
Thus, there's nothing to debate.
He claims he merely wants to "listen"...
Let's extend to him the courtesy of responding to his question with our definition...and them let him challenge it if, and only when, he chooses.

He is asking for OUR definition but, he isn't challenging it......yet....

Let's provide it, and let him choose to extend the O.P. into a debate on that definition if he chooses....it is his thread.

Thank you.
Before I changed my position, this is what free will meant to me.

Jesus paid for all the sins of the entire world. We are free to choose to believe or not believe. There is only one sin that is unforgivable. That being the sin of unbelief.
Therefore, God gives us the free choice to believe or not believe. All our sins are atoned for, except the sin of unbelief. It is the unforgivable sin.
Perhaps that view is different from the free will positions mentioned so far. I am looking to see if there is a common definition we can agree upon so we understand the term/concept.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Thank you.
Before I changed my position, this is what free will meant to me.
Jesus paid for all the sins of the entire world. We are free to choose to believe or not believe.

Yes...That is really a statement about the scope of the atonement, not really the definition of free will, but, yes.

There is only one sin that is unforgivable. That being the sin of unbelief.

I don't really think that is Biblical. I also used to think that, but, God doesn't condemn us for "unbelief"....we are condemned because of sin. Failure to believe simply leaves us in that state of condemnation.

Therefore, God gives us the free choice to believe or not believe. All our sins are atoned for, except the sin of unbelief.

Meh...
I think Jonathan Edwards tries to make an argument destroying that assumption, but, as an adherent of L.F.W....
"Unbelief" isn't really the sin which condemns. Assuming "unbelief" is a sin in the same sense as say, adultery;
I don't think it is.

It is the unforgivable sin.

The "unforgivable sin" is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit by claiming the Christ cast out devils by Beelzebub.
There is no need to define (for the present age) an "unforgivable sin" be it unbelief or anything else....
I think we always go awry by trying to define a thing which cannot, by definition, be committed at this point.
It is neither belief or non-belief.
I think it was specific to the time of the gospel narratives and committed by those who essentially accused Jesus of Satan-worship.

Perhaps that view is different from the free will positions mentioned so far. I am looking to see if there is a common definition we can agree upon so we understand the term/concept.

A definition of "Free-will" isn't really relevant to the things you posted above I.M.O. one could theoretically hold all manner of view pertaining to the unforgivable sin, how one defines the "sin of unbelief" et. al.

Even if a majority of free-will adherents view things as you said (and I think you're correct that many do) none of them inhere in the belief in freedom of will by necessity....

They are side-shows, like the Ottoman front in WWI.

 

[Particular]

Yes...That is really a statement about the scope of the atonement, not really the definition of free will, but, yes.

I don't really think that is Biblical. I also used to think that, but, God doesn't condemn us for "unbelief"....we are condemned because of sin. Failure to believe simply leaves us in that state of condemnation.

Meh...
I think Jonathan Edwards tries to make an argument destroying that assumption, but, as an adherent of L.F.W....
"Unbelief" isn't really the sin which condemns. Assuming "unbelief" is a sin in the same sense as say, adultery;
I don't think it is.

The "unforgivable sin" is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit by claiming the Christ cast out devils by Beelzebub.
There is no need to define (for the present age) an "unforgivable sin" be it unbelief or anything else....
I think we always go awry by trying to define a thing which cannot, by definition, be committed at this point.
It is neither belief or non-belief.
I think it was specific to the time of the gospel narratives and committed by those who essentially accused Jesus of Satan-worship.

A definition of "Free-will" isn't really relevant to the things you posted above I.M.O. one could theoretically hold all manner of view pertaining to the unforgivable sin, how one defines the "sin of unbelief" et. al.

Even if a majority of free-will adherents view things as you said (and I think you're correct that many do) none of them inhere in the belief in freedom of will by necessity....

They are side-shows, like the Ottoman front in WWI.

I simply stated the position I once held as the way I defined free will. I have no intention on arguing the position.

 

[MB]

MB, I removed all your inflammatory comments so we can see what you believe regarding free will. There is no need to attack a different view here. Just share what free will means...how you define free will.

You can't remove it because I haven't broken any rules. It's still there and up for debate.
MB

 

[MB]

Thank you.
Before I changed my position, this is what free will meant to me.

Jesus paid for all the sins of the entire world. We are free to choose to believe or not believe. There is only one sin that is unforgivable. That being the sin of unbelief.
Therefore, God gives us the free choice to believe or not believe. All our sins are atoned for, except the sin of unbelief. It is the unforgivable sin.
Perhaps that view is different from the free will positions mentioned so far. I am looking to see if there is a common definition we can agree upon so we understand the term/concept.

Actually the only unforgivable sin is blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. Unbelief can be forgiven as long as you are alive. after death there will be no sin forgiven.
MB

 

[Wesley Briggman]

My definition of free will is it is a lie of Satan.

Consider the following as stated by Martin Luther.

Full text of "Martin Luther on the bondage of the will : to the venerable mister Erasmus of Rotterdam, 1525"

Excerpts from the above document

"An evident proof this, that Freewill is a downright lie"

"The truth, however, is, that God has never given Freewill (if by Freewill is meant an uncontrolled will) to any creature."

"Freewill is not a matter of the Spirit, or of Christ, but a mere human affair"

"Freewill, by its own strength, cannot but fall ; and has no power, save to commit sin"

"Freewill is nothing but Satan s captive packhorse, which cannot have freedom, unless the devil be first of all cast out by the finger of God."

"Freewill is nothing but the chiefest enemy of righteousness and of man s salvation ; because it cannot be, but that some amongst these Jews and Gentiles have acted and endeavoured with the uttermost power of Freewill; and yet with this very Freewill have done nothing but wage war against grace."

"If the just man lives by faith, he that hath not faith is not just; and, if not just, he is a sinner. If whatsoever be not of faith is sin, whatever is done by mere Freewill is sin ; because Freewill has nothing to do with faith, but is by the supposition perfectly distinct from it : neither has faith any thing to do with Freewill, but has another origin. Whatsoever it doth therefore, not being of faith, is sin. So that Freewill is only sin."

Amen and Amen !

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

What is the definition of "free will" as defined by the free will advocates on this site?

Free will has to do with the ability to choose. Consider the Berean Jews vs. the Thessalonican as a case in point (see Acts 17:10-12). One group chose to reject Paul's message outright, and did so, and worse. The other chose to compare it with Scripture, and did so, and as a result many of them believed. Both groups had access to the Scriptures and to the Gospel, but only one chose to carefully consider Paul's message alongside the Scriptures. Neither group was forced against their will; each was allowed to choose, and did so. Each both had free will and exercised it, with opposite results.

 

[rstrats]

Maybe it's alread been given and I've missed it, but what would be an example of a "will" that is not free?

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Jdg 4:6 KJV - And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, [saying], Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?
Jdg 4:7 KJV - And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand.
Jdg 4:13 KJV - And Sisera gathered together all his chariots, [even] nine hundred chariots of iron, and all the people that [were] with him, from Harosheth of the Gentiles unto the river of Kishon.
Jdg 4:14 KJV - And Deborah said unto Barak, Up; for this [is] the day in which the LORD hath delivered Sisera into thine hand: is not the LORD gone out before thee? So Barak went down from mount Tabor, and ten thousand men after him.
Jdg 4:15 KJV - And the LORD discomfited Sisera, and all [his] chariots, and all [his] host, with the edge of the sword before Barak; so that Sisera lighted down off [his] chariot, and fled away on his feet.
Jdg 4:16 KJV - But Barak pursued after the chariots, and after the host, unto Harosheth of the Gentiles: and all the host of Sisera fell upon the edge of the sword; [and] there was not a man left.

I think Sisera would say he engaged his enemy of his own free will. What say you?

Act 9:1 KJV - And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Act 9:2 KJV - And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Act 9:3 KJV - And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4 KJV - And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 KJV - And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 KJV - And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Saul's will (free? or Satan's will) was to continue persecuting Christians. Did Saul fall to the earth of his own free will? If so, why? Why did Saul submit his will to the Lord's will? Why didn't Saul remind the Lord of his free will?

Bottom line:
Luk 22:42 KJV - Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Our Lord Jesus Christ submitted His will to our God, His father. This is an example to all Christians. We are not here to do our will, free or otherwise. We are to do the will of God empowered by the Holy Spirit.

Mat 6:10 KJV - Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.

Hopefully I have given enough scripture that the Holy Spirit will use to teach us the true worthlessness of our will if it is not in His will.

 

[utilyan]

Jdg 4:6 KJV - And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, [saying], Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?
Jdg 4:7 KJV - And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand.
Jdg 4:13 KJV - And Sisera gathered together all his chariots, [even] nine hundred chariots of iron, and all the people that [were] with him, from Harosheth of the Gentiles unto the river of Kishon.
Jdg 4:14 KJV - And Deborah said unto Barak, Up; for this [is] the day in which the LORD hath delivered Sisera into thine hand: is not the LORD gone out before thee? So Barak went down from mount Tabor, and ten thousand men after him.
Jdg 4:15 KJV - And the LORD discomfited Sisera, and all [his] chariots, and all [his] host, with the edge of the sword before Barak; so that Sisera lighted down off [his] chariot, and fled away on his feet.
Jdg 4:16 KJV - But Barak pursued after the chariots, and after the host, unto Harosheth of the Gentiles: and all the host of Sisera fell upon the edge of the sword; [and] there was not a man left.

I think Sisera would say he engaged his enemy of his own free will. What say you?

Act 9:1 KJV - And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Act 9:2 KJV - And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Act 9:3 KJV - And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4 KJV - And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 KJV - And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 KJV - And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Saul's will (free? or Satan's will) was to continue persecuting Christians. Did Saul fall to the earth of his own free will? If so, why? Why did Saul submit his will to the Lord's will? Why didn't Saul remind the Lord of his free will?

Bottom line:
Luk 22:42 KJV - Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Our Lord Jesus Christ submitted His will to our God, His father. This is an example to all Christians. We are not here to do our will, free or otherwise. We are to do the will of God empowered by the Holy Spirit.

Mat 6:10 KJV - Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.

Hopefully I have given enough scripture that the Holy Spirit will use to teach us the true worthlessness of our will if it is not in His will.

Luk 22:42 KJV - Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Our Lord Jesus Christ submitted His will to our God, His father. This is an example to all Christians. We are not here to do our will, free or otherwise. We are to do the will of God empowered by the Holy Spirit.

This is the perfect example of free will. God didn't have to shove his hand up Jesus and work him like a puppet. God the Father didnt' have to SNAP his will and say NOPE NOT YOUR WAY, BUT MINE. Jesus had a SAY.

IF you don't have a say then even your "AMEN" is a false lie.



There is a difference between ARGUING free will Does not exist, VS. Free will is a bad thing.

IF You have not figured this out yet. A person might be hard pressed to see the difference if their common sense can't even get them out of Calvinism.

 

[Particular]

Free will has to do with the ability to choose. Consider the Berean Jews vs. the Thessalonican as a case in point (see Acts 17:10-12). One group chose to reject Paul's message outright, and did so, and worse. The other chose to compare it with Scripture, and did so, and as a result many of them believed. Both groups had access to the Scriptures and to the Gospel, but only one chose to carefully consider Paul's message alongside the Scriptures. Neither group was forced against their will; each was allowed to choose, and did so. Each both had free will and exercised it, with opposite results.

Are you sure about the Thessalonians?

1 Thessalonians 1:2-10 We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantlymentioning you in our prayers, remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake. And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with the joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia. For not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth everywhere, so that we need not say anything. For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

 

[David Kent]

Luther said : "Adam was given freewill and used that freewill to sin." As chidren of Adam we only have freewill to sin.

On another forum Someone said "I believe in absolute freewill." But since they also believe in Once saved Always saved, I consider that to be anomaly as if they have absolute freewill to choose,then they must have absolute freewill to unchoose.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Are you sure about the Thessalonians?

1 Thessalonians 1:2-10 We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantlymentioning you in our prayers, remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake. And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with the joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia. For not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth everywhere, so that we need not say anything. For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Well, maybe not more than Luke, but are you suggesting what Paul said about them in that first epistle could not jive with what I described from Luke’s contrast? I fail to see how it eliminates all choice, and likely always will, because I feel I have no other choice.