Degree mill problems!

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

But Steven Flockhart’s degrees were not from Almeda or Concordia. They were from Covington Theological School in Fort Oglethorpe, Ga. This is an unaccredited correspondence school but I would not call it a degree mill. I only have one friend with a degree from there (Master’s). We had attended classes together through seminary extension at our local association office and he went on to take some classes from Covington eventually earning a degree. His course work was in line with what we took from Seminary extension and it took him about two years to finish his masters.

As I read this article the problem was not that he had unaccredited degrees. It was that his resume was written to imply (although not state specifically) that his degrees were from Columbia International University (where he was a student for two years) and Southeastern Seminary.

I would not call Covington a degree mill although I am sure some on this board would. I do recognize that it is not an accredited school and a degree from there does not carry anywhere near the same weight as a degree from CIU or Southeastern.

Again I don’t think Flockhart’s problem was his degree but that he lied about it.

 

[UZThD]

Regarding Covington:

It's been a while since I've looked at their site, so perhaps they are not millish anymore.

IMO some tests for a mill , as a mill is defined IMO above , ie, as not requiring what should be expected for a degree, and assuming Cov. still offers masters and docs in Bible/Theolo, are:

1) At Cov. do the majority of the graduate faculty have accredited PhDs/ThDs , or at least recognized as the equivalent, in the area of instruction? By that they would seem better qualified to deliver doc level work and evaluate student products as such--or not as such. I suppose an equivalent to accredited might be, say, from BJU (before TRACS).

2) At Cov. can a grad of the masters program get acceptance into an accredited doc program and actually succeed in it? That might be a good test. Can anyone name one Covington grad who has on the strength of the Cov masters done an accredited doc? As a comparison, BJU grads have for some time done that. Radmacher eg!

3) At Cov. are entry requirements for doc programs rigid as requiring exams, accredited undergrad degrees, languages? If not, how could the doc student body beevidenced as prepared to do doc work?


What I notice so often about mills is their determination, despite their inadequacy to do so in terms of having substance and standards, to offer doctoral degrees to those who are less willing or less able to do genuine doc work.


Just my thoughts

 

[paidagogos]

Degree requirements

Regarding Covington:

It's been a while since I've looked at their site, so perhaps they are not millish anymore.

IMO some tests for a mill , as a mill is defined IMO above , ie, as not requiring what should be expected for a degree, and assuming Cov. still offers masters and docs in Bible/Theolo, are:

1) At Cov. do the majority of the graduate faculty have accredited PhDs/ThDs , or at least recognized as the equivalent, in the area of instruction? By that they would seem better qualified to deliver doc level work and evaluate student products as such--or not as such. I suppose an equivalent to accredited might be, say, from BJU (before TRACS).

2) At Cov. can a grad of the masters program get acceptance into an accredited doc program and actually succeed in it? That might be a good test. Can anyone name one Covington grad who has on the strength of the Cov masters done an accredited doc? As a comparison, BJU grads have for some time done that. Radmacher eg!

3) At Cov. are entry requirements for doc programs rigid as requiring exams, accredited undergrad degrees, languages? If not, how could the doc student body beevidenced as prepared to do doc work?


What I notice so often about mills is their determination, despite their inadequacy to do so in terms of having substance and standards, to offer doctoral degrees to those who are less willing or less able to do genuine doc work.


Just my thoughts

I would suggest adding a perusal of the degree requirments to your list. How can a person earn a doctorate (e.g. Th.D.) without any language requirements whatsoever in his entire education. It is possible to go from the first degree to a doctorate at Covington without any real Biblical language requirements.

Furthermore, you will find the course content to be well below seminary or graduate level. In fact, it is below undergraduate expectations.

Also, I recommend a close look at the time involved for the degrees. I question the rigor of a doctorate that can be earned in one year.

 

[paidagogos]

Testimonials?

But Steven Flockhart’s degrees were not from Almeda or Concordia. They were from Covington Theological School in Fort Oglethorpe, Ga. This is an unaccredited correspondence school but I would not call it a degree mill. I only have one friend with a degree from there (Master’s). We had attended classes together through seminary extension at our local association office and he went on to take some classes from Covington eventually earning a degree. His course work was in line with what we took from Seminary extension and it took him about two years to finish his masters.

As I read this article the problem was not that he had unaccredited degrees. It was that his resume was written to imply (although not state specifically) that his degrees were from Columbia International University (where he was a student for two years) and Southeastern Seminary.

I would not call Covington a degree mill although I am sure some on this board would. I do recognize that it is not an accredited school and a degree from there does not carry anywhere near the same weight as a degree from CIU or Southeastern.

Again I don’t think Flockhart’s problem was his degree but that he lied about it.

Testimonials are virtually worthless in evaluating a school. I have seen glowing recommendations of known degree mills. A testimonial has more to do with feelings and satisfaction than the assessment of real quality. Also, I've know people with genuinely earned doctorates give their presitige and endorsement of degree mills.

I can counter your anecdotes with stories of my own. I am familiar with an extension of Covington in my area. The faculty had their degrees from Covington and were barely literate. They were not well educated but they taught and awarded everything from bachelors to doctorates. They were sincere men and probably taught some good things but they were not college or seminary level. I would have no problem with their awarding certificates but not degrees.

Also, I have studied and followed degree mills and distance education since the 1970's. I have corresponded with DE pioneers and experts such as John Bear and Steve Levicoff. You have read my posts regarding my position on accreditation. Although I work on committees establishing genuine accreditation standards, I do not necessarily believe that one must be accredited to have high educational standards (e.g. BJU, PCC, Greenville Presbyterian Seminary, et. al.) And I do know degree mills. IMHO, Covington is a degree mill in the same catergory as a dozen of other such schools that I could name. I do not classify LBU, Bethany and Andersonville as degree mills but they are diploma mills implying earned degrees at a very low standard. These schools do have some low standards approximating the minimal expectations. Sometimes the distinction is hard to make.

Finally, it is deceptiveto represent a degree mill credential as a legitimate degree . This alone brings one's integrity into question. Yes, Flockhart's bogus degrees were a problem. He is claiming an achievement that he doesn't possess.

 

[UZThD]

I would suggest adding a perusal of the degree requirments to your list. How can a person earn a doctorate (e.g. Th.D.) without any language requirements whatsoever in his entire education. It is possible to go from the first degree to a doctorate at Covington without any real Biblical language requirements.

Furthermore, you will find the course content to be well below seminary or graduate level. In fact, it is below undergraduate expectations.

Also, I recommend a close look at the time involved for the degrees. I question the rigor of a doctorate that can be earned in one year.

===


Paid

I agree on all three of your points, and on your determination of Covington's lack of quality in grad studies.

What many participants in such grad programs do not seem to get is the questionable ethic of having the appearance of accomplishing the equivalency, since the SAME degrees are given (!), of that required of grads in good schools.

That is, how many with such as a Covington doc fail to qualify to friends that they took the much easier and nearly effortless route to learn about their Master and His Word

...to get the title without giving the effort to really earn it

...as though the title itself ,and not the fruits of strenuous effort, not the actual learning, was what really mattered ?

How many then rationalize their choice with fables about there just being no other cost effective or distance opportunities?

And how many then turnabout and preach to their congreants that we should be fair and honest in everything we do and give of our all to the Master and give our best energy to learn His Word??

And how is all of this a good witness to the life changing power of our God?

 

[paidagogos]

No excuse!

===


Paid

I agree on all three of your points, and on your determination of Covington's lack of quality in grad studies.

What many participants in such grad programs do not seem to get is the questionable ethic of having the appearance of accomplishing the equivalency, since the SAME degrees are given (!), of that required of grads in good schools.

That is, how many with such as a Covington doc fail to qualify to friends that they took the much easier and nearly effortless route to learn about their Master and His Word

...to get the title without giving the effort to really earn it

...as though the title itself ,and not the fruits of strenuous effort, not the actual learning, was what really mattered ?

How many then rationalize their choice with fables about there just being no other cost effective or distance opportunities?

And how many then turnabout and preach to their congreants that we should be fair and honest in everything we do and give of our all to the Master and give our best energy to learn His Word??

And how is all of this a good witness to the life changing power of our God?

Money and distance are no excuses. There are very economical and legitimate distance education options for the people more interested in learning than acquiring a title. I am really high on the South African DE schools. They are very affordable, recognized, accountable, rigorous and respected. However, they are NOT a quick and easy way to a title.

 

[UZThD]

Money and distance are no excuses. There are very economical and legitimate distance education options for the people more interested in learning than acquiring a title. I am really high on the South African DE schools. They are very affordable, recognized, accountable, rigorous and respected. However, they are NOT a quick and easy way to a title.

===

I agree.

As you know I, after finishing work for 3 theology masters of ascending substance or rigor { MA, MDiv (equiv), ThM } in 2 residential RA USA schools, took my doc instead "out of Africa." It took three years but

1) cost less than $3000!

2) All by DE!

3) Profs ,with accredited docs, from three public SA unis were on my committee.

It fit my wallet and my immobility.

But it left me my self respect.

 

[El_Guero]

I don't like what the guy did.

But, I gotta wonder, "Am I really 'better' than he is?" Without Jesus, the answer is a resounding, "NO!"

 

[UZThD]

I assume we all are including Jesus in what we do educationally for Jesus.

 

[El_Guero]

Welllllll

I pray that flockhart did not include Jesus in his schemes . . . but, if he did . . . that is really a low point . . .

But, apart from him and those like him, I agree - "including Jesus in what we do educationally for Jesus" should be an assumption.

I assume we all are including Jesus in what we do educationally for Jesus.

 

[UZThD]

point , I guess, is in the preposition: "for Jesus."

 

[El_Guero]

Sage advice . . .

point , I guess, is in the preposition: "for Jesus."

 

[Broadus]

Broadus, you are right on target. Character and Biblical integrity are too often at the bottom of the qualifications for the pastoral candidate. Most people's estimations of a preacher have to do with how they personally relate to him. A winsome personality counts more than character, knowledge, etc. The Biblical qualifications for a pastor have more to do with character than education, personality, etc.

You stated that some churches "care more about getting a charismatic leader who can 'produce' by growing the church than they do about biblical integrity." Here's a thought: Do they really "grow" the church? Is attracting a crowd the same as growing the church? Some mega-churches have the reputation of a five-year turnover cycle. Is this growing the church? Are the individual members of the church growing and maturing or did they just stop by for the circus? When the charismatic leader leaves, there goes the church. What do you think?

Hi Paid,

I agree with you. I should have put growing in quotation marks. I think a lot of "church growth" is merely increasing the number of religiously-minded unregenerate or superficial believers on our membership rolls. We've lost the concept of the local church's being a community of believers.

Bill

 

[El_Guero]

Bill

"Church growth" is more about moving believers from one church to another and reaching the lost for the Kingdom and definitely not about making disciples . . . tho't gb would like that one . . .

Hi Paid,

I agree with you. I should have put growing in quotation marks. I think a lot of "church growth" is merely increasing the number of religiously-minded unregenerate or superficial believers on our membership rolls. We've lost the concept of the local church's being a community of believers.

Bill

 

[gb93433]

"Church growth" is more about moving believers from one church to another and reaching the lost for the Kingdom and definitely not about making disciples . . . tho't gb would like that one . . .

Amen!!! :thumbsup::thumbsup: Sad but in most cases it seems true.

 

[bro_ken128]

There seems to be a misconception of correspondence schools. It is in no way just send in your money and viola get your piece of paper. The experience I have had with them requires study, taking tests and passing them. Just like secular schools they have to charge a tuition. Albeit a flat rate sometimes, it in no wise handed to you on a silver platter. Some students finish their courses at a faster rate than others

That does not make them a diploma mill. Their requirements may be less strigent than some high dollar institutions that really don't teach much, but some of their courses are outstanding. Even if you paid your tuition in advance. You don't get your degree until you have successfully passed all your tests. Accreditation has nothing to do with it. I know a lot of good schools that have chosen not to become accredited for what ever reason. Most of the refusal for accreditation is cost.

 

[bro_ken128]

Accreditation is a farse

Accreditation is strickly voluntary. Which has nothing to do with quality of degree programs. Most accrediting agencies look at stability, class size, class accomadations, etc. They aren't concerned about the quality of degree programs. Just the money they can get from your school

 

[StefanM]

IMO, if you want to study by correspondence at an unaccredited school, you might be better off spending your money on amazon.com.

People always bring up cost as a factor for unaccredited schools. I say they are too expensive. If you are paying more than what you would pay for a conference or seminar, then I say that you are probably paying too much. Why? If your degree won't be recognized by credible institutions, why bother with earning the "degree"? Just study on your own or maybe find some other pastors with some education to point you in the right direction.

Accredited degrees might be more expensive, but unaccredited ones don't give you the utility.

 

[UZThD]

There seems to be a misconception of correspondence schools. s

That does not make them a diploma mill. Their requirements may be less strigent than some high dollar institutions that really don't teach much, but some of their courses are outstanding.

==

No one in this thread is saying correspondence schools in general are deficit.


Neither Paid nor I have argued that only accredited schools can have quality teaching ; rather, we have raised issues about Covington and schools like it . We have advanced arguments.

No one has answered those arguments.

Why do you think high dollar schools "don't teach much," and what schools are you saying have "outstanding courses" and why do you say that?

The governmentally approved accreditor , TRACS, lists on its website benchmarks for schools seeking accreditation. Which of those bench marks , which TRACS implies schools should have, would not, IYO, improve the quality of instruction and why?

Yes, accreditation is voluntary...so is quality!

 

[jprieto]

Why Offend Fellow Christians?

... a church that was so shabby in their "search" for God's man.

Jesus showed compassion - and as Christians, are we not to follow His example?

A church, is an organization aiming to win souls -- not sell drugs or porn -- and regardless of how weak its administration may be, surely it is deserving of MUCH respect from the rest of us. We do that we our parents -- no matter their flaws, we show respect. Right? Or am I in the wrong board?

I see no need to make offensive remarks about ANY church.
It is not Christian to do so.

Don't know which is worse, an honest mistake made by a church, or an offensive remarks from a "Christian leader" about another Christian?

Can we not correct with love? Not knowing how that happened, should we be hasty to judge? And is this degree of judgement acceptable in the eyes of God.

Dr. Bob, with all due respect and brotherly love, why do i keep running into posts by you in which you throw offenses at organizations who work so very hard to spread the word of God?

What would non-Christians who run into the board think of this cruel "Christians-attacking-Christians" conduct? Where is the love?

Why no "good Christians" of this board suggest prayers for this unfortunate event?

So sad.