Degree- worth the paper?

[Amy.G]

When you use the terms "scholar" and "layperson" how do you mean them?

Please read post #52.

I did not use the terms. These terms were used by Havensdad and Luke.

They are referring to Seminary professors and Bible college students. See their quotes in post #52.

 

[webdog]

Here is an email and message I received from someone well respected and graced with "higher learning".

People WILL attack your position and your "god" because it is in error. So when you "blow a whistle" on a post, I'll let you know I'm really tempted to "pile on" and amen those who attack error relentlessly.

Hey, Bro - non Calvinistic IS a false Gospel. Cannot help if moderators are
Bible believers!!

Couldn't say this on the site as it would violate rules. But want to be
honest with you since have long-endured the BB. But I truly do believe 98%
of the "Arminian" are really pelagian works-gospel Finney types and I have
no pity on those willingly believing error.

Let the reader decide whether or not "seminary education gives one more Bible knowledge than the average layman." A "Doctor" who believes I worship another "god" based on my non cal soteriology or that anything but calvinism (man's finite understanding of the mechanics of THE Gospel) is a "false gospel" should seriously consider asking for a refund on their education and should fall to their knees in repentance.

 

[Don]

It appears it does not matter what I actually say- just what you want me to have said so that it would be easier to antagonize me. I don't mean to be disrespectful here but it would be very nice if you would actually debate ME and MY thoughts rather than the straw man that you keep giving my name to.

You invoke "strawman," attempting to say I've distorted your position: let's look at you and your thoughts, and what you've actually wrote (said), and maybe you'll understand why I've drawn the conclusions I have:

All anyone is saying here is what should be so clear that NONE should argue against it- that doing the work and investing the time, tears, sweat and blood in years upon years of formal training desiring to know the Word of God to be as effective in the ministry as possible enables one to know more than the average layman who does not go to seminary.

A good university is one with solid professors and curriculum. Any one that meets this criteria will give its students an advantage over the average layman.

There was a young punk named Tat
Whose mind was blind as a bat
"I'm smarter'n any egg head," he said
But was to them no more than a gnat!

I have been very clear that seminary education gives one more Bible knowledge than the average layman.

Therefore you can thank God for the one with the formal education who with that education was able to uncover that tid bit of info that so blessed your heart.

And if a pastor even, who is not a genius, is even going to hope to get close to the seminary graduate in Bible knowledge, he is going to have to do what Spurgeon and William Carey did- he is going to have to bury his face in books written by those who DID have formal training.

There is no way a person who has not learned Greek and Hebrew and written a couple of theses on theological research and passed a hundred rigorous theological exams and sat under some of the most brilliant living Bible scholars on earth can know as much about the Bible as one who has done these things.

Your words. If you can't see even a hint of the things several of us have been trying to tell you about how arrogant this comes across as, well, I don't know how to make it any clearer.

I understand what you're trying to say; that the majority of laymen (in your words, average laymen) don't spend extra time studying the bible, and that's why those who do spend the time and money are more equipped to discuss/teach biblical topics. However, your presentation comes across as haughty and prideful--as evidenced by the responses from more than one person in this and other thread.

In the context of the majority of laypersons, compared to those who have studied extensively--whether via seminary or exhaustive self-study--no, no one can argue with you that those who have studied are better prepared to teach the laity; but I have to ask: Does it require a seminary degree to preach salvation by grace through faith?

I personally believe that's where this conversation got muddled in the first place. I believe you're trying to say that seminary-trained people are better prepared to teach over a period of years/lifetime; while your message, as presented, is being interpreted as "laity need to keep to the pews and let the 'experts' do the preaching."

Not trying to present any strawmen; presenting your argument based on perception/interpretation of what you've written. And I humbly present to you that, based on what others have written, that perception/interpretation is held by others--and therefore, if a distortion of your position (i.e., "strawman") exists, it's not because of anyone willfully trying to distort your position.

 

[convicted1]

Here's something that I think got lost in the shuffle. The pupil is no better than the teacher that teaches/taught him*in most cases!* There are some pupils who excel far better than their teacher, and then there's those that regardless how much the teacher pounds the subject to them, they can't grasp it.

Some people "whizz" through school and get "A's" on everything. Then there's some that struggle to get a "C" with hours of massive study. So a MDiv is just that, a MDiv. That, by itself, will not make one a preacher. This also doesn't guarantee that they will doctrinally sound, either. Why? Those of us who hold to FW look at the DoG'ers as being wrong, and vice versa. So who is the one who can tell which side is right? We(both sides) show scriptures that we *think* shows are view to be correct, but BOTH CAN'T BE RIGHT!! I am not suggesting that I am right and y'all(DoG'ers) are wrong, but both of us can't be right. That is why Jesus said to let the "wheat and tares grow together, and when He comes, He will give a righteous judgement!!

Bro Luke, to answer your question, I honestly don't know where the 10 pieces of silver info came from, but I'd venture to say from a book that a scholar wrote. Not saying "scholars" are bad, but us "backwoods" preachers have the same access to the same Throne of Grace!!:thumbs: Love you, Brother!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Here is an email and message I received from someone well respected and graced with "higher learning".

People WILL attack your position and your "god" because it is in error. So when you "blow a whistle" on a post, I'll let you know I'm really tempted to "pile on" and amen those who attack error relentlessly.

Hey, Bro - non Calvinistic IS a false Gospel. Cannot help if moderators are
Bible believers!!

Couldn't say this on the site as it would violate rules. But want to be
honest with you since have long-endured the BB. But I truly do believe 98%
of the "Arminian" are really pelagian works-gospel Finney types and I have
no pity on those willingly believing error.

Let the reader decide whether or not "seminary education gives one more Bible knowledge than the average layman." A "Doctor" who believes I worship another "god" based on my non cal soteriology or that anything but calvinism (man's finite understanding of the mechanics of THE Gospel) is a "false gospel" should seriously consider asking for a refund on their education and should fall to their knees in repentance.

Webdog.....so these are private message's you have just made public?

 

[glfredrick]

Here is an email and message I received from someone well respected and graced with "higher learning".

People WILL attack your position and your "god" because it is in error. So when you "blow a whistle" on a post, I'll let you know I'm really tempted to "pile on" and amen those who attack error relentlessly.

Hey, Bro - non Calvinistic IS a false Gospel. Cannot help if moderators are
Bible believers!!

Couldn't say this on the site as it would violate rules. But want to be
honest with you since have long-endured the BB. But I truly do believe 98%
of the "Arminian" are really pelagian works-gospel Finney types and I have
no pity on those willingly believing error.

Let the reader decide whether or not "seminary education gives one more Bible knowledge than the average layman." A "Doctor" who believes I worship another "god" based on my non cal soteriology or that anything but calvinism (man's finite understanding of the mechanics of THE Gospel) is a "false gospel" should seriously consider asking for a refund on their education and should fall to their knees in repentance.

Interestingly, I've seen the same things on this board that he has, and I've said as much. I have not argued for a strict "Calvinist" interpretation of the Scriptures, however, for classical Arminianism is within the realm of orthodoxy if it is held correctly. However, the Wesleyan formulations of Arminianism go astray from the classical version, and then people tack on Pelagian sympathies as well, and the result is a seriously mixed up cafeteria-line theology.

 

[DHK]

Food for thought:

The story is told of a young curate in the Church of England who was greatly helped in his understanding of the Scriptures by frequent conversations with an uneducated cobbler, who was, nevertheless, well acquainted with the Word of God. On one occasion when a friend of his, a young theologian, was visiting him, he mentioned this remarkable knowledge of the Bible which the cobbler possessed. The young theologue, in a spirit of pride, expressed a desire to meet him, saying he felt sure he could ask some questions which he would be quite unable to answer. Upon being introduced to the man in his little shop, the question was put, "Can you tell me what the Urim and the Thummin were?"

The cobbler replied, "I don't know exactly: "I don't know exactly; I understand that the words apply to something that was on the breastplate of the high priest. I know that the words mean "Lights and Perfection," and that through the Urim and Thummin the high priest was able to discern the mind of the Lord. But I find that I can get the mind of the Lord by just changing two letters. I take this blessed Book, and by 'usin' and 'thummin', I get the mind of the Lord that way."

--Dr. H.A. Ironside, in the Moody Church News.

 

[BobinKy]

:applause:

...Bob

 

[glfredrick]

Here's something that I think got lost in the shuffle. The pupil is no better than the teacher that teaches/taught him*in most cases!* There are some pupils who excel far better than their teacher, and then there's those that regardless how much the teacher pounds the subject to them, they can't grasp it.

Some people "whizz" through school and get "A's" on everything. Then there's some that struggle to get a "C" with hours of massive study. So a MDiv is just that, a MDiv. That, by itself, will not make one a preacher. This also doesn't guarantee that they will doctrinally sound, either. Why? Those of us who hold to FW look at the DoG'ers as being wrong, and vice versa. So who is the one who can tell which side is right? We(both sides) show scriptures that we *think* shows are view to be correct, but BOTH CAN'T BE RIGHT!! I am not suggesting that I am right and y'all(DoG'ers) are wrong, but both of us can't be right. That is why Jesus said to let the "wheat and tares grow together, and when He comes, He will give a righteous judgement!!

Bro Luke, to answer your question, I honestly don't know where the 10 pieces of silver info came from, but I'd venture to say from a book that a scholar wrote. Not saying "scholars" are bad, but us "backwoods" preachers have the same access to the same Throne of Grace!!:thumbs: Love you, Brother!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

I'm not sure that I understand the dichotomy that you propose.

I'm also very confused about the anti-intellectual stance of many on this board. Ignorance is not bliss... And, the man or woman trained in academia can indeed be as filled with the Holy Spirit and able to discern the texts as anyone who has not had the benefit of formal education.

As an aside, I've seen this debate played out all my life, as both my mother and father were people who left school before graduating for various reasons. My mom made it through just the 8th grade, and she was always sure that she missed something that others who finished high school and/or college (and indeed she did) but she has made the drastic mistake of equating intelligence with the level of schooling -- then building on that error of judgment, mocking those who "had all that schooling, but who could not do what she did..." My dad had similar issues, as he had left high school after a couple years to enlist in the Marines. He has always held educated people in esteem and he has deferred to their understanding in ways that have not always been helpful -- almost the opposite of my mom.

Then comes me... First in my entire family's history to graduate high school. First to attend college. First to graduate from college. First to have a Master's degree. First to be considered a "professional" instead of blue-collar or farmer. Lots of firsts... But, yes, from mom, I get the "you think that you are better than the rest of us (followed by crying because she never had the chance to finish school) and from the rest of the family, similar stuff... I've been shunned from my family and almost silenced during family affairs because of the generational bias against educated people (I have 3 brothers and not a one graduated high school).

All I can say is that it is just plain weird...

I'm not "better" and I still know how to work, but the PERCEPTION is that "now that I'm educated, I am less worthy of being in the company of 'regular people'". To that, all I can say is hogwash. I am just as comfortable under the back side of a cow or driving a tractor, sawing firewood, building an engine, etc., as I am in the study of the great Greek philosophers, or the Scriptures in the original languages, and I strive to teach others. That is what God has called me to do and I am working hard to be faithful.

I TOO am "I AM's..."

 

[webdog]

Webdog.....so these are private message's you have just made public?

Can you not read? I said email and message....and I did not disclose who sent them.

Do you agree with this person?

 

[Crabtownboy]

I think it is arrogant to believe that a person must attend a university or seminary to dedicate their life to the study of God's Word. Your statement seems to infer that unless one attends a "place of higher learning" that they are unable to study the Bible beyond a Sunday School level. Maybe that wasn't your intent, but it reads that way to me.

Would you go to a surgeon who was arrogant enough to have gone to medical school and specialized in surgery? I mean, using your logic, since I did not and cannot be accused of arrogance in this area, well I should be able to operate on you in my kitchen.

Yes, I am being sarcastic.

 

[webdog]

Interestingly, I've seen the same things on this board that he has, and I've said as much. I have not argued for a strict "Calvinist" interpretation of the Scriptures, however, for classical Arminianism is within the realm of orthodoxy if it is held correctly. However, the Wesleyan formulations of Arminianism go astray from the classical version, and then people tack on Pelagian sympathies as well, and the result is a seriously mixed up cafeteria-line theology.

Like this person, I believe your judgement to be clouded by your theology. Holding to one aspect of a particular view does NOT mean one holds to the whole of the view, particularly the heretical aspect (man can come to God all on his own without any assistance from God or the open theism understanding of God and time)

 

[webdog]

Would you go to a surgeon who was arrogant enough to have gone to medical school and specialized in surgery? I mean, using your logic, since I did not and cannot be accused of arrogance in this area, well I should be able to operate on you in my kitchen.

Yes, I am being sarcastic.

You cannot compare physical trades with spiritual. All believers are indwelt with the Holy Spirit and we all share His Word.

 

[Luke2427]

You cannot compare physical trades with spiritual. All believers are indwelt with the Holy Spirit and we all share His Word.

Yea, but unless you believe in tongues for today then you understand that the Holy Spirit does not impart the knowledge of the Greek language apart from rigorous study.

He does not impart theological training and church history and philosophy, etc, etc, etc...

He blesses people with the knowledge of those things who sacrifice to get it.

There are an extraordinarily few people, most of whom are geniuses, who dig it out themselves without formal training- like Spurgeon, but the vast majority of them go to school.

 

[Luke2427]

Here is an email and message I received from someone well respected and graced with "higher learning".

People WILL attack your position and your "god" because it is in error. So when you "blow a whistle" on a post, I'll let you know I'm really tempted to "pile on" and amen those who attack error relentlessly.

Hey, Bro - non Calvinistic IS a false Gospel. Cannot help if moderators are
Bible believers!!

Couldn't say this on the site as it would violate rules. But want to be
honest with you since have long-endured the BB. But I truly do believe 98%
of the "Arminian" are really pelagian works-gospel Finney types and I have
no pity on those willingly believing error.

Let the reader decide whether or not "seminary education gives one more Bible knowledge than the average layman." A "Doctor" who believes I worship another "god" based on my non cal soteriology or that anything but calvinism (man's finite understanding of the mechanics of THE Gospel) is a "false gospel" should seriously consider asking for a refund on their education and should fall to their knees in repentance.

Two things-

#1- This email did not come from me.


#2- This is becoming a problem, IMO. This is the second time that someone has sent a private message to a poster on here and that poster has posted it publicly in a few days. Not only is that ethically wrong but I think I can speak for most of us- WE DON'T WANT TO BE IN YOUR BUSINESS.

Please keep your personal business to yourself. And if someone sends you a private message keep it private.

 

[Luke2427]

Sorry. But if you think that proves your point your wrong.

Well, as long as you say so.

He had no formal training, just an intense desire to understand God's word. Which is something anyone is capable of whether they ever sit in a seminary class or not.

It has nothing to do with what people are capable of. It has to do with what people ARE.

That being said are you saying that your grandfather was just an average layman? Would you say he had no better knowledge than the average church member?

 

[webdog]

Two things-

#1- This email did not come from me.

Never said it did.

#2- This is becoming a problem, IMO. This is the second time that someone has sent a private message to a poster on here and that poster has posted it publicly in a few days. Not only is that ethically wrong but I think I can speak for most of us- WE DON'T WANT TO BE IN YOUR BUSINESS.

I see...so the problem is not in the context of the email and message, it's the airing it to prove a point. I did not disclose who sent it, but felt the content disproves the very notion that is being debated on this thread. I've read many emails on this forum the past 5 years without a peep. When one is posted that shows grievous error, those holding to the same error find problem with it. Typical.

Please keep your personal business to yourself. And if someone sends you a private message keep it private.

I'll do what I wish, you hold no "authority" over anyone here on the BB, Luke, besides...
Private message

Main article: Personal message
A private message, or PM for short, is a message sent in private from a member to one or more other members. The ability to send so-called carbon copies is sometimes available. When sending a carbon copy (cc), the users to whom the message is sent directly will not be aware of the recipients of the carbon copy or even if one was sent in the first place.[example 1]
Private messages are generally used for personal conversations. They can also be used with tripcodes—a message is addressed to a public trip and can be picked up by typing in the tripcode.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Like this person, I believe your judgement to be clouded by your theology. Holding to one aspect of a particular view does NOT mean one holds to the whole of the view, particularly the heretical aspect (man can come to God all on his own without any assistance from God or the open theism understanding of God and time)

Webdog, are you saying that Reformed theology is Heretical? your plainly making that claim?

 

[webdog]

Yea, but unless you believe in tongues for today then you understand that the Holy Spirit does not impart the knowledge of the Greek language apart from rigorous study.

So much for God sovereignly doing what He wants. I do believe God can allow anyone to speak any language He so wishes. I do not believe in the gibberish that is being passed as "tongues".

He does not impart theological training and church history and philosophy, etc, etc, etc...

Really? So this all occurs apart from His will?

He blesses people with the knowledge of those things who sacrifice to get it.

So...the knowledge does not come from God, it comes from man's efforts....and you label me the Arminian :laugh:

There are an extraordinarily few people, most of whom are geniuses, who dig it out themselves without formal training- like Spurgeon, but the vast majority of them go to school.

...and of course you have evidence of this proof you will be posting shortly to the BB. Should I be holding my breath?

 

[webdog]

[/B]

Webdog, are you saying that Reformed theology is Heretical? your plainly making that claim?

Your reading comprehension is on par with Luke's. It should be quite apparent I was referring to the Pelagianism claim that I responded to. I wasn't even talking about reformed theology unless you think reformed theology teaches "man can come to God all on his own without any assistance from God or the open theism understanding of God and time."