Degrees of punishement for the unbeliever

[revmwc]

These seven points were given by the pastor I grew up under. Do you agree or disagree? I am not sure where he got them or if they are his own points.

7 POINTS REFUTING THE DOCTRINE OF DEGREES OF PUNISHMENT

1. It teaches that God can be partially propitiatory. 1st John 2:2 refutes this.
2. It destroys the true issue of Christ: it makes one rejecter of God’s Grace get a less degree of punishment than another rejecter of God’s Grace.
3. You can’t assume the antithesis of a Biblical Thesis to be true unless it is stated in the Bible
A. A true Biblical thesis & antithesis 1st John 5:12
B. An Antithesis assumed from the thesis 1st Corinthians 3:12-15
4. It denies the law of double jeopardy-God doesn’t require two payments for sin. John 1:29; 2nd Cor. 5:21; 1st Peter 3:18.
5. Live the best you can so you won’t get a bad degree of punishment becomes a criteria of its advocates.
6. There are no cool spots in the “lake of Fire” the final destiny of all unbelievers Rev. 20:14-15.
7. There is no degree of unbelief i.e. you are either saved or lost.

 

[Reformed]

These seven points were given by the pastor I grew up under. Do you agree or disagree? I am not sure where he got them or if they are his own points.

7 POINTS REFUTING THE DOCTRINE OF DEGREES OF PUNISHMENT

1. It teaches that God can be partially propitiatory. 1st John 2:2 refutes this.
2. It destroys the true issue of Christ: it makes one rejecter of God’s Grace get a less degree of punishment than another rejecter of God’s Grace.
3. You can’t assume the antithesis of a Biblical Thesis to be true unless it is stated in the Bible
A. A true Biblical thesis & antithesis 1st John 5:12
B. An Antithesis assumed from the thesis 1st Corinthians 3:12-15
4. It denies the law of double jeopardy-God doesn’t require two payments for sin. John 1:29; 2nd Cor. 5:21; 1st Peter 3:18.
5. Live the best you can so you won’t get a bad degree of punishment becomes a criteria of its advocates.
6. There are no cool spots in the “lake of Fire” the final destiny of all unbelievers Rev. 20:14-15.
7. There is no degree of unbelief i.e. you are either saved or lost.

I am in basic agreement. The Lake of Fire is bad enough.

 

[jonathan.borland]

Matt. 11:20 ** Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”

Luke 12:47 ** “That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

These suggest degrees of punishment, but notably not based on the nature or extent of the crimes but rather on the extent of light given to the offender who doesn't repent.

 

[Greektim]

These seven points were given by the pastor I grew up under. Do you agree or disagree? I am not sure where he got them or if they are his own points.

7 POINTS REFUTING THE DOCTRINE OF DEGREES OF PUNISHMENT

1. It teaches that God can be partially propitiatory. 1st John 2:2 refutes this.
2. It destroys the true issue of Christ: it makes one rejecter of God’s Grace get a less degree of punishment than another rejecter of God’s Grace.
3. You can’t assume the antithesis of a Biblical Thesis to be true unless it is stated in the Bible
A. A true Biblical thesis & antithesis 1st John 5:12
B. An Antithesis assumed from the thesis 1st Corinthians 3:12-15
4. It denies the law of double jeopardy-God doesn’t require two payments for sin. John 1:29; 2nd Cor. 5:21; 1st Peter 3:18.
5. Live the best you can so you won’t get a bad degree of punishment becomes a criteria of its advocates.
6. There are no cool spots in the “lake of Fire” the final destiny of all unbelievers Rev. 20:14-15.
7. There is no degree of unbelief i.e. you are either saved or lost.

Do you believe in degrees of sin? As in Jesus telling Pilate, "Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin." (Jn 19:11)

Do you believe that the Law of Moses dealt out the same punishment for everything?

 

[revmwc]

Johathan a question, who places the punishment on them? Would it be God or themselves. Their conscious minds will be at work. We know this from the story of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich woke up in torments and knew his brothers needed to receive Christ. Because of his opportunities would he therefore suffer more because of how close He was to salvation. Or like Agrippa when he told Paul almost you persuade me and then opening his eyes in hell, he will say for all eternity I was that close and rejected, why didn't I recive him. God's punishment for all who reject is the Lake of Fire that is clear in Revelation 20. Therefore it will be more bearable for those who were not close to salvation than for those whom Christ says after they tell him what they did in his name and He says depart from me I never knew, how much more will they suffer in their knowing just how close they were, God doesn't give them any mor or less punishment, but their conscious mind will.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I wonder if your pastor got the idea from Dante's "Inferno"? There are more than seven levels in Dante's book.

 

[jonathan.borland]

I don't think that the gradations of punishment will be in their minds only, but for sake of the metaphor given, with "many blows" versus "few blows," I can only imagine that it means different gradations of pain.

 

[convicted1]

Although I don't agree with the differing punishments in the lake of fire, I thank God, that by His grace, I won't find out if it's true or not...

 

[revmwc]

Greektim, Sin is sin, Jesus became the propitiation for sin, ALL sin. The ten commandments were given to Moses as the guidelines for the Laws of the Jewish people and as God's standard for man to meet His righteous requirement. Man can never and has never meet those requirements. Thus Jesus came and met the requirements for us and paid the penalty for our sins. Thus He became the Propitiation for our sins, for all of, for all of mankind's sins. Are there sins God hates worse than other Solomon laid them out, but God hates all sin. Christ paid the price for the sins of all mankind, no matter how bad the sin was. As 1st John 2:2 states Jesus was the propitiation for our sins but not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world. The issue for salvation is not a sin issue it is a SON issue, have you believed on the Lord Jesus Christ as the one and only savior. Sin is not the issue and at the Great White Throne Judgment seen in Revelation 20 says that those not found written in the book of life are cast into the Lake of Fire. Their sin and works were judged to see if they could meet God's requirement and they came up lacking, then the Book of Life was examined and if their name was not found then they were cast into the Lake of Fir, not for their sin but for their rejection.

 

[revmwc]

I don't think that the gradations of punishment will be in their minds only, but for sake of the metaphor given, with "many blows" versus "few blows," I can only imagine that it means different gradations of pain.

So you believe Christ payment wasn't enough for sin and that the worse the sin the worse man will pay for that sin. That is virtually what degree's of punishment means. Chirst couldn't fully pay for the sin, therefore there is a partial propitiation as point one says couldn't happen because of 1st John 2:2.

 

[Greektim]

Greektim, Sin is sin, Jesus became the propitiation for sin, ALL sin. The ten commandments were given to Moses as the guidelines for the Laws of the Jewish people and as God's standard for man to meet His righteous requirement. Man can never and has never meet those requirements. Thus Jesus came and met the requirements for us and paid the penalty for our sins. Thus He became the Propitiation for our sins, for all of, for all of mankind's sins. Are there sins God hates worse than other Solomon laid them out, but God hates all sin. Christ paid the price for the sins of all mankind, no matter how bad the sin was. As 1st John 2:2 states Jesus was the propitiation for our sins but not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world. The issue for salvation is not a sin issue it is a SON issue, have you believed on the Lord Jesus Christ as the one and only savior. Sin is not the issue and at the Great White Throne Judgment seen in Revelation 20 says that those not found written in the book of life are cast into the Lake of Fire. Their sin and works were judged to see if they could meet God's requirement and they came up lacking, then the Book of Life was examined and if their name was not found then they were cast into the Lake of Fir, not for their sin but for their rejection.

So you inherently do understand not all sin is equal. God may hate all sin, but does he hate them equally? I say no.

Plus you didn't answer the verse I referenced which clearly refers to some sins as greater (Jn. 19:11). Sin is sin, but not all sin is equal. The degrees of punishment in the Law make that plain enough. It is inherently clear in our sense of justice and morality that not all crime is the same. If the punishment should fit the crime, then not all sin is equal.

I also noticed that you have used theological reasoning more than Bible verses to back up your claims (i.e. propitiation and many of you points in the OP). Not criticizing, just think it is interesting that you are using doctrinal inference to makes a bold claim about something.

 

[Yeshua1]

So you believe Christ payment wasn't enough for sin and that the worse the sin the worse man will pay for that sin. That is virtually what degree's of punishment means. Chirst couldn't fully pay for the sin, therefore there is a partial propitiation as point one says couldn't happen because of 1st John 2:2.

Doesn't jesus though link all of this to the concept of how much light God revealed to that sinner, and how that sinner 'chose" to respond towards Him, so that God is totally fair in accessing levels of punishment for hell, as well as degrees of rewards in heaven?

Could it be how much of the presence/lack of one experiences while in heaven or hell then?

 

[revmwc]

So you inherently do understand not all sin is equal. God may hate all sin, but does he hate them equally? I say no.

Plus you didn't answer the verse I referenced which clearly refers to some sins as greater (Jn. 19:11). Sin is sin, but not all sin is equal. The degrees of punishment in the Law make that plain enough. It is inherently clear in our sense of justice and morality that not all crime is the same. If the punishment should fit the crime, then not all sin is equal.

I also noticed that you have used theological reasoning more than Bible verses to back up your claims (i.e. propitiation and many of you points in the OP). Not criticizing, just think it is interesting that you are using doctrinal inference to makes a bold claim about something.

1st John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Which is referenced in the points and I have referenced. Christ propiatory sacrifice paid the price for ALL sin. There can be no more punishment one the sin has been paid for.

then there is 1st John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Christ the Son is the propitiation for sin, yes it says ours but in verse two of chapter two it says for the sins of the WHOLE world, that would be ALL peoples and every sin.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Christ put away sin, how by becoming the propitiatory sacrifice and He paid in full the penalty for the sins of the WHOLE World that is all of mankind.

If the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.) and Christ paid those wages then requiring punishment for it yet again would say He didn't pay for it fully wouldn't it. The law of double jeopardy is violated, there can be only one penalty one price paid for sin, to add a different degree of punishment for sin would be to have an additional payment required. Revelation 20 states that those not written in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire and that is the second death then the wages of sin paid by Christ and the price of rejection is the second death. Wages paid no more wages or price to be paid in eternity, no degrees of punishment.

Finally Jesus words in John 3:17 & 18 tell us the one and only reason a person is condemned to Hell or the Lake of Fire, and that is"

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

do you see they are not condemned because of how many or how bad their sin was, Jesus said they are condemned because of unbelief, Because they failed to believe on the name of the son, so are there different degree's of unbelief, and are there different temperatures of heat from molten sulfer, which is what Brimstone is? God has received the payment for the sins of the Whole World, the price and punishment has been paid, those who reject Christ are condemned and will suffer in agony for their unbelief not for the type or amount of sin or the degree of how bad their sin was.

 

[Yeshua1]

1st John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Which is referenced in the points and I have referenced. Christ propiatory sacrifice paid the price for ALL sin. There can be no more punishment one the sin has been paid for.

then there is 1st John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Christ the Son is the propitiation for sin, yes it says ours but in verse two of chapter two it says for the sins of the WHOLE world, that would be ALL peoples and every sin.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Christ put away sin, how by becoming the propitiatory sacrifice and He paid in full the penalty for the sins of the WHOLE World that is all of mankind.

If the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.) and Christ paid those wages then requiring punishment for it yet again would say He didn't pay for it fully wouldn't it. The law of double jeopardy is violated, there can be only one penalty one price paid for sin, to add a different degree of punishment for sin would be to have an additional payment required. Revelation 20 states that those not written in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire and that is the second death then the wages of sin paid by Christ and the price of rejection is the second death. Wages paid no more wages or price to be paid in eternity, no degrees of punishment.

Finally Jesus words in John 3:17 & 18 tell us the one and only reason a person is condemned to Hell or the Lake of Fire, and that is"

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

do you see they are not condemned because of how many or how bad their sin was, Jesus said they are condemned because of unbelief, Because they failed to believe on the name of the son, so are there different degree's of unbelief, and are there different temperatures of heat from molten sulfer, which is what Brimstone is? God has received the payment for the sins of the Whole World, the price and punishment has been paid, those who reject Christ are condemned and will suffer in agony for their unbelief not for the type or amount of sin or the degree of how bad their sin was.

ALL humans are already condemned though before unbelief, as we are dead in our sins , and are under the curse/fall of adam...

 

[Greektim]

1st John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Which is referenced in the points and I have referenced. Christ propiatory sacrifice paid the price for ALL sin. There can be no more punishment one the sin has been paid for.

then there is 1st John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Christ the Son is the propitiation for sin, yes it says ours but in verse two of chapter two it says for the sins of the WHOLE world, that would be ALL peoples and every sin.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Christ put away sin, how by becoming the propitiatory sacrifice and He paid in full the penalty for the sins of the WHOLE World that is all of mankind.

If the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.) and Christ paid those wages then requiring punishment for it yet again would say He didn't pay for it fully wouldn't it. The law of double jeopardy is violated, there can be only one penalty one price paid for sin, to add a different degree of punishment for sin would be to have an additional payment required. Revelation 20 states that those not written in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire and that is the second death then the wages of sin paid by Christ and the price of rejection is the second death. Wages paid no more wages or price to be paid in eternity, no degrees of punishment.

Finally Jesus words in John 3:17 & 18 tell us the one and only reason a person is condemned to Hell or the Lake of Fire, and that is"

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

do you see they are not condemned because of how many or how bad their sin was, Jesus said they are condemned because of unbelief, Because they failed to believe on the name of the son, so are there different degree's of unbelief, and are there different temperatures of heat from molten sulfer, which is what Brimstone is? God has received the payment for the sins of the Whole World, the price and punishment has been paid, those who reject Christ are condemned and will suffer in agony for their unbelief not for the type or amount of sin or the degree of how bad their sin was.

Couple things:

Quoting verses on propitiation is simply arguing from the doctrine of propitiation. So the more verses you quote doesn't make it less theological and more scriptural.

Second, I don't know what point you are arguing for. Yes Jesus efficaciously paid for the sin of his people. I'm not disputing that. How does this apply to degrees of sin and degrees of punishment? I don't understand your logic. Please explain.

 

[revmwc]

Couple things:

Quoting verses on propitiation is simply arguing from the doctrine of propitiation. So the more verses you quote doesn't make it less theological and more scriptural.

Second, I don't know what point you are arguing for. Yes Jesus efficaciously paid for the sin of his people. I'm not disputing that. How does this apply to degrees of sin and degrees of punishment? I don't understand your logic. Please explain.

As one point says "It (the teaching of degrees of punishment) makes one rejecter of God’s Grace get a less degree of punishment than another rejecter of God’s Grace." Sin was paid for, so will a sinner be punished for his sin and rejection of Christ?

Since Jesus paid for all sin, past, present and future then why would God place a degree on one sinner over another. Adultery for instance carried with it the penalty of stoning, murderers were to be stoned, same penalty different sin. The penalty of sin is death, not punishment. The punishment for sin is death, the penalty for rejecting Christ is eternal punishment, eternal separation from God. Revelation 20:14 & 15, 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The second death separation from God for all eternity is placed on all who are not written in the book of life that is all who rejected Christ, nothing is mentioned about the Beast and False Prophet being given a greater degree than the rest of the rejecter's of Christ. All go into the Lake of fire. ALL who rejected. Nothing is said about them receiving a different degree of punishment and when satan is cast into the Lake of Fire it doesn't say and the greatest torment was reserved for him. It says he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

 

[revmwc]

ALL humans are already condemned though before unbelief, as we are dead in our sins , and are under the curse/fall of adam...

Correct and the penalty for their unbelief is Separation from God forever in the Lake of Fire. That is the punishment they receive for the only sin that sent them there, the sin of unbelief, rejection of Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

Correct and the penalty for their unbelief is Separation from God forever in the Lake of Fire. That is the punishment they receive for the only sin that sent them there, the sin of unbelief, rejection of Christ.

They were already condemned though BEFORE the act of unbelief, as being found by God to be in Adam, and unbelief just was final piece to complete their ruination...

 

[jonathan.borland]

So you believe Christ payment wasn't enough for sin and that the worse the sin the worse man will pay for that sin. That is virtually what degree's of punishment means. Chirst couldn't fully pay for the sin, therefore there is a partial propitiation as point one says couldn't happen because of 1st John 2:2.

Like I said:

"These [verses] suggest degrees of punishment, but notably not based on the nature or extent of the crimes but rather on the extent of light given to the offender who doesn't repent."

 

[Yeshua1]

Like I said:

"These [verses] suggest degrees of punishment, but notably not based on the nature or extent of the crimes but rather on the extent of light given to the offender who doesn't repent."

God ordains when and where each person is born, and what light they will get, so does it not make sense that those who jad much light and still refused to obey God will merit more severe punishment then those who had little light?