Demanding the Tithe

[dcorbett]

My parents tithed....and they were happy to do so. They gave over and above their tithe many times, both in donations and in time.

I don't think the Pastor should know what people are giving. He only needs to know the bottom line, the total. And the person that does the bookwork needs to be held to the highest personal standards, and should have integrity beyond reproach.

I will say this - I have found that, as I give, God gives back. The more I give, the more blessings I receive. It has happened over and over, I cannot deny His blessings. I didn't realize it, but in my Quicken program, I looked at a pie chart of my spending, and guess what? MY giving is at 10% and I didn't even try!! :jesus:

 

[Tom Bryant]

Tom, if anything those passages refute the tithe and support giving from the heart. Its one thing to promise God and the church a certain gift and seeing to it this promise is fulfilled, and another to ensure people are giving a specific amount of their income (tithe) which is not commanded for non jews or the church.

I would disagree about what they prove. I think no one is talking about the command o tithe because it was expected. But, tithing doesn't mean that you don't give from the heart. God owns everything and it is my joy to give of God at least 10%.

In Malachi 3 God says that Israel had robbed him in tithes and offerings. A tithe is expected. An offering is something that we give extra. The commands to give that are being talked about are in terms of an offering that is over and above the tithe.

In terms of the passage in Acts, my point was that Peter and the Apostles knew exacrtly what was being given. I was talking about how that Pastors are not to know what people give or how much. Again, before someone attacks, I think it is much smarter for a pastor not to know. But I think this is a personal (and right) choice, not a Biblical mandate.

 

[Salty]

It seems my church has a different kind of financial report to your hypothetical new church. Our reports do not give a breakdown of how much is given by each member, regardless of whether or not that member is a leader. Indeed, there would be no way we could give such information, except, I suppose, for members who give by cheque or by bank transfer, but even then we would not know how much more they might give in cash.

So in answer to your question, if I did go to a new church and the pastor told me that he checks the financial giving of the leaders, I would ask him how and why.

David, the public financial report only lists the total income. it does not break it down by who gave how much. Now, the treasurer and/or financial secretary will maintain records on who gives how much. The main, and probably only reason is so they can give the contributer a statement at the end of the tax year - as church contributions are tax deductible (if you file long form - which is another long story)

 

[webdog]

I would disagree about what they prove. I think no one is talking about the command o tithe because it was expected. But, tithing doesn't mean that you don't give from the heart. God owns everything and it is my joy to give of God at least 10%.

In Malachi 3 God says that Israel had robbed him in tithes and offerings. A tithe is expected. An offering is something that we give extra. The commands to give that are being talked about are in terms of an offering that is over and above the tithe.

In terms of the passage in Acts, my point was that Peter and the Apostles knew exacrtly what was being given. I was talking about how that Pastors are not to know what people give or how much. Again, before someone attacks, I think it is much smarter for a pastor not to know. But I think this is a personal (and right) choice, not a Biblical mandate.

"Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."

Clearly if the tithe was in effect (and if it still is), this would be a command, hence it would be compulsive giving.

 

[Tom Bryant]

"Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."

Clearly if the tithe was in effect (and if it still is), this would be a command, hence it would be compulsive giving.

I understand what you are saying. But Paul was talking here about a special offering for other believers and, for me, this would come under the category of an offering.

 

[Arbo]

Just playing devil's advocate (so to speak), but if a person views giving a tithe a duty and gives out of compulsion or guilt and not cheerfully, is that wrong?

 

[Tom Bryant]

Just playing devil's advocate (so to speak), but if a person views giving a tithe a duty and gives out of compulsion or guilt and not cheerfully, is that wrong?

I'd say yes. The Bible talks about not just right actions, but right motives.

 

[Salty]

Just playing devil's advocate (so to speak), but if a person views giving a tithe a duty and gives out of compulsion or guilt and not cheerfully, is that wrong?

Yes, because he does not need our money. He wants us to freely recieve a blessing.

 

[annsni]

Just playing devil's advocate (so to speak), but if a person views giving a tithe a duty and gives out of compulsion or guilt and not cheerfully, is that wrong?

I believe absolutely. I also believe that it is wrong to give pridefully.

 

[freeatlast]

Here is my question regarding tithing and giving to the local church. First I definetly agree that we should be financially supportive of our local church so here is my situation and question. The church my wife and I attend is small and extremely strapped money wise. I am the youth pastor (unpaid which is no problem). Because of the financial situation at our church my wife and I essentially provide the monetary support for the youth ministry. We purchase out of pocket everything from curriculum to Bibles for the kids that need them (which considering our youth all come from families that do not attend church all of them need Bibles). We pay for the gas in the vans to pick up the kids, we pay for activities and trips. We do require that the kids going to activities pay some but the bulk of the money for the youth ministry in general comes from my wife and I. None of this is a problem for us we actually enjoy doing it. The amount of the money that we invest in this ministry usually goes above the benchmark of 10% of our income annually. The reality in our situation is that with our current financial position we cannot pay for the youth ministry as we have been and give to the general fund. The way we have viewed it in the past is that we are alleviating an expense for the church by making sure that they don't have to worry about the youth ministry. Lately I have been wondering if this is the right approach. My concern is that if my wife and I don't cover the cost of the youth ministry the church may not. At the same time I do not want to be guilty of essentially robbing God by not giving to the general fund. My wife and I want to do whats right and the fact is we cannot cover the expenses of the youth and give to the churchs general fund. How would you all advise us?

First off you need to stop referring to your giving as tithing. That is not NT terminology for our giving. Second based on what you said I think you are in violation of the principle of giving. Our giving is not to be for our own personal desires even if those desires are for something related to the ministry.
We are to give and allow the leadership of the church to decide how the funds are used. The way you described your giving you are doing the deciding and that would not be biblical any more then just the regular Christian giving to support what he or she felt was most important and calling it giving to the Lord.
I suggest that you do as scripture says. Lay aside the first of every week to give to the Lord as he has prospered you from a cheerful heart. Then seek the Lord to use a portion of that for the ministry you are doing as the church leadership feels is necessary and if there is something lacking if you want to deny yourself certain things to make up some difference that would be fine.
The main thing is to give to the church so you come under its authority for the distribution of what you give and then you can dig deeper into your personal needs and do without to give to your ministry if you want.

 

[Alcott]

In Malachi 3 God says that Israel had robbed him in tithes and offerings. A tithe is expected.

You seldom have to wait long for Malachi 3 to be brought up in this topic. And it's seldom that I don't say something like this .... That passage has an action and reaction, which most supporters claim is a financial blessing to be received if one tithes. Yet it also quotes God, who says to test him in this. I have tested God in that way, and there is no such blessing. The correaltion coefficient drops-- the test of hyposthesis fails. As soon as I say that, then I hear that the "blessing" is either not financial, or it cannot be measured in a real number system. If that is the case, it is impossible to do a test. You will perceive any 'result' as you please. And that's why people still defend this passage as applicable to NT Christians. They make up their minds they are going to tithe and receive the blessing and there it is-- because it has to be there, visible and tangible, or invisible or intangible. But it's no test at all. And I deplore these mind games. If a person makes a determined change in his/her life to change--go to church, tithe, stop certain habits... there should be something to be seen. To stop smoking, drinking, overeating.. all will result in less money spent. So as these thing are so often associated with a resolution to tithe, then the 'blessing' of living a more moderate life is going to be perceived as that the blessing from tithing/giving. And few are going to do any accounting; they'll just self-importantly claim a blessing they 'earned.' And there are certainly enough preachers who still want to play this up. But someone who genuinely tests God-- as he instructed-- is going to be degraded and called untrusting or unfaithful. That's okay-- I'm thick-skinned.

 

[Jim1999]

I believe that all givings are voluntary, including the amount. Having said that, I also believe the tithe is minimal and then the offerings. I don't give to God to receive back. I give because He is God and I am giving to His work, freely.

Now, household and family come first, but we ought not to spend irresponsibly and then say we can't afford to tithe.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[HAMel]

What Alcott said. :thumbs:

I have witnessed people rise in church and testify about the blessing they recently received regarding this matter or that matter..., and I've come to take most of it with a grain of salt. I don't really believe the Lord blesses as some claim.

The blessings that I've come to realize over the years I've basically kept to myself.

Prayer. There's some woman in church that's 98 years old with one foot in the grave and people are praying for the Lord heal her. Why? They ought to be asking the Lord to take her as quickly as possible as she have been bed-ridden for 12 years and it's just time to end her suffering.

Yes, the Lord does answer prayer and He does bless individuals when He so desires and some people stand in church just to hear themselves talk. Our relationship with the Lord starts with a "personal" invitation...., and from then on everything else should be made public?

 

[Crucified in Christ]

I keep reading these posts that argue that the tithe was a part of the law... as if that means that it exists only within the law. Certainly, the concept was incorporated into the law, but it also clearly pre-existed the law. It is hard to void that which precedes the law by simply claiming freedom from the law. Logic demands more.

 

[Tater77]

I keep reading these posts that argue that the tithe was a part of the law... as if that means that it exists only within the law. Certainly, the concept was incorporated into the law, but it also clearly pre-existed the law. It is hard to void that which precedes the law by simply claiming freedom from the law. Logic demands more.

Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils of a battle , ONCE. Jacob gave a one time tithe as part of a bargin, ONCE.

The famous "Robbing God" sermon, takes Malachi 3 out of context. Rewind back to the target audience, which were the Levites. It was the priests who were robbing God by their laziness in collecting the tithes and collecting tithes of poor quality.


I just want someone to show me the verse/text that says you must set aside 10 percent of your gross pre-tax income.

 

[freeatlast]

I keep reading these posts that argue that the tithe was a part of the law... as if that means that it exists only within the law. Certainly, the concept was incorporated into the law, but it also clearly pre-existed the law. It is hard to void that which precedes the law by simply claiming freedom from the law. Logic demands more.

The problem with man's logic is that it almost always denies the word of God. If there was ever a time for the tithe to be taught it was when Paul spoke to the Gentile Corinthians about giving as they would not know about tithing. Paul never mentioned the tithe or basing their giving on the tithe as a min. What do you think the logic is about that? Could it be that the tithe is no more? If a person follows the tithe they are under law. If a person follows the NT way to give they are giving under grace which is far superior to the tithe.
If God wanted the church to tithe He would have put it in the NT where giving is mentioned, but He did not. We are all to give but not the tithe or base our giving on the tithe.

 

[freeatlast]

I believe that all givings are voluntary, including the amount. Having said that, I also believe the tithe is minimal and then the offerings. I don't give to God to receive back. I give because He is God and I am giving to His work, freely.

Now, household and family come first, but we ought not to spend irresponsibly and then say we can't afford to tithe.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim you remind me of the person who claims to be pro-life and then says except in the case of... The truth is they are not pro-life. They are pro abortion except in the case of...

To say that we are to give freely but the tithe is the min. is to say we are not to give freely as scripture says and is adding to scripture. If God intended us to give based in any min. then He would have stated that in the NT but He did not. Any suggestion of such is adding to scripture.

There is no min. or percent we are to base our giving on. Just give as your heart desires according to how God has prospered from a cheerful heart. Do not give a single penny that cannot be given from a cheerful heart. In other words we feel absolutely no compulsion about the amount. We are not basing it on anything except pure desire to give that amount, nothing else.

 

[DHK]

Jim you remind me of the person who claims to be pro-life and then says except in the case of... The truth is they are not pro-life. They are pro abortion except in the case of...

To say that we are to give freely but the tithe is the min. is to say we are not to give freely as scripture says and is adding to scripture. If God intended us to give based in any min. then He would have stated that in the NT but He did not. Any suggestion of such is adding to scripture.

There is no min. or percent we are to base our giving on. Just give as your heart desires according to how God has prospered from a cheerful heart. Do not give a single penny that cannot be given from a cheerful heart. In other words we feel absolutely no compulsion about the amount. We are not basing it on anything except pure desire to give that amount, nothing else.

What does your heart desire?
Paul says: "I am carnal sold under sin."
If I did what I wanted and followed "after I wanted" I would sleep in every morning and not get up in time to go to work. That would be my "desire."
If I had my "desire," I would be eating too much "junk food" and not enough of what is healthy for me.
One could go on and on, and give many examples of what our "desires" are as contrasted to what our responsibilities are, whether or not we like them.

God loveth a cheerful giver that is true. But we need to give whether or not we are cheerful about it. God loves a servant's heart. But the bathrooms of the church need to be cleaned whether or not I have that "servant's heart." It is a responsibility. It needs to be done. Not every one has a custodian or janitor.

If the bills are going to be paid; if the pastor is going to be supported; if the financial needs of the church are going to be met, then the members of the church need to learn to tithe. Whether cheerfully or not, it is an obligation that needs to be met just to keep the church afloat. To some giving comes naturally and joyfully. To others it is hard to let go of hard-earned money. Not everyone is the same. But the obligation to be responsible with the money that God has entrusted us with remains the same.

 

[webdog]

What does your heart desire?

The Bible says if we delight in Him He will give us the desires of our heart, which are desires conformed to His will.

Paul says: "I am carnal sold under sin."

He also says we have the "mind of Christ."

If I did what I wanted and followed "after I wanted" I would sleep in every morning and not get up in time to go to work. That would be my "desire."
If I had my "desire," I would be eating too much "junk food" and not enough of what is healthy for me.

This might be your desire, but to the person devoted to fitness and the workaholic the desire would not be the same.

One could go on and on, and give many examples of what our "desires" are as contrasted to what our responsibilities are, whether or not we like them.

Not necessarily true as our desires can also stem from our responsibilities, i.e. being a parent.

God loveth a cheerful giver that is true. But we need to give whether or not we are cheerful about it. God loves a servant's heart. But the bathrooms of the church need to be cleaned whether or not I have that "servant's heart." It is a responsibility. It needs to be done. Not every one has a custodian or janitor.

Giving is not necessarily monetarily. It is also your time and how you are gifted. As believers we are all called to serve.

If the bills are going to be paid; if the pastor is going to be supported; if the financial needs of the church are going to be met, then the members of the church need to learn to tithe.

Faulty conclusion based on a faulty premise.

Whether cheerfully or not, it is an obligation that needs to be met just to keep the church afloat. To some giving comes naturally and joyfully. To others it is hard to let go of hard-earned money. Not everyone is the same. But the obligation to be responsible with the money that God has entrusted us with remains the same.

Agreed we are all to be responsible...disagree this requires adhering to an OT levitical law not designed for the NT church. Many times more money means more waste, and I have witnessed just that. If more people gave less and served more you wouldn't need to worry about more property, additional services requiring additional staff, etc. I see something seriously wrong when over 3/4 of monies received go toward maintaining a property and paying a couple salaries. Is that what God had in mind when He gave the ordinance of the tithe? I doubt it. The modern church has turned into a business. I won't go into specifics, but when a church is constantly asking for additional money above and beyond normal giving for community outreach, discipleship events, etc. due to not being able to supply this because of salaries and property maintenance, something is seriously wrong.

 

[freeatlast]

What does your heart desire?
Paul says: "I am carnal sold under sin."
If I did what I wanted and followed "after I wanted" I would sleep in every morning and not get up in time to go to work. That would be my "desire."
If I had my "desire," I would be eating too much "junk food" and not enough of what is healthy for me.
One could go on and on, and give many examples of what our "desires" are as contrasted to what our responsibilities are, whether or not we like them.

God loveth a cheerful giver that is true. But we need to give whether or not we are cheerful about it. God loves a servant's heart. But the bathrooms of the church need to be cleaned whether or not I have that "servant's heart." It is a responsibility. It needs to be done. Not every one has a custodian or janitor.

If the bills are going to be paid; if the pastor is going to be supported; if the financial needs of the church are going to be met, then the members of the church need to learn to tithe. Whether cheerfully or not, it is an obligation that needs to be met just to keep the church afloat. To some giving comes naturally and joyfully. To others it is hard to let go of hard-earned money. Not everyone is the same. But the obligation to be responsible with the money that God has entrusted us with remains the same.

There is no tithe. That is legalism. We are to give from a cheerful heart and no more. The reason that many pastors today teach the tithe is not because it is biblical but because they do not trust the Lord to provide. If the pastor was doing his job and teaching correctly the people would be living spiritual lives and there would be an abundance of scriptural giving. None the less there is no tithe for the NT.