Demanding the Tithe

[DHK]

The Bible says if we delight in Him He will give us the desires of our heart, which are desires conformed to His will.

No everyone is as spiritual as you and live on such a high spiritual plane. There are new Christians. There are many that need to be discipled.

He also says we have the "mind of Christ."

Same as above. I know you have reached sinless perfection, but we are not all there yet.

This might be your desire, but to the person devoted to fitness and the workaholic the desire would not be the same.

I gave you an example of what happens with many people. I didn't say it was necessariy "mine," although it is easy to do. I don't know that the great majority of people are devoted to fitness. The great majority of people of America are either overweight or obese. So we know that is not the case. We also know that the natural tendency of man is laziness. People give in to their own desires more often than not, unless it affects their paychecks.

Not necessarily true as our desires can also stem from our responsibilities, i.e. being a parent.

And not everyone is a good parent--giving the child everything he/she wants--giving into the child's desires. Good parenting is becoming a lost art.

Giving is not necessarily monetarily. It is also your time and how you are gifted. As believers we are all called to serve.

So, if we all gave of our talents instead of our money, the bills would still get paid??

Faulty conclusion based on a faulty premise.

There is not faulty premise here. If there is no giving, the finances of the church are nil; the church collapses.

Agreed we are all to be responsible...disagree this requires adhering to an OT levitical law not designed for the NT church. Many times more money means more waste, and I have witnessed just that. If more people gave less and served more you wouldn't need to worry about more property, additional services requiring additional staff, etc. I see something seriously wrong when over 3/4 of monies received go toward maintaining a property and paying a couple salaries. Is that what God had in mind when He gave the ordinance of the tithe? I doubt it. The modern church has turned into a business. I won't go into specifics, but when a church is constantly asking for additional money above and beyond normal giving for community outreach, discipleship events, etc. due to not being able to supply this because of salaries and property maintenance, something is seriously wrong.

It is not simply Levitical law. If you think that you haven't studied your Bible. Abraham tithed. Jacob tithed. They were well before the Law. Abraham tithed to Melchizedek, a type of Christ.
Besides, as Jim mentioned, a tithe could just be a starting place. There is no law you have to keep it there. OT law would be far more than 10%. Dr. Bob figured it out to something like 35-40%. There was far more than just that one 10% tithe according to the law. They had many tithes that they were responsible for. To say that we are going according to Levitical Law is a misnomer, and showing a lack of Biblical knowledge.

Tithing does not produce an over-abundance of money in my experience, especially among small churches--which is what I am mostly acquainted with. If you are in a very large church perhaps it might be time to take your finances and some members of your church and go and start another church. Give more money to missions. If you have an abundance of money there are many worthwhile projects that it can be used for. I can give you lots of suggestions. It doesn't have to go to bigger and better buildings. You don't have to be like the rich man in Luke 12.

 

[InTheLight]

should the pastor demand that certain leaders in the church ie SS teachers, deacons, ect tithe of their wages?

No. The NT believer is not commanded to tithe.

Should the pastor review the financial records to see who is giving. Should he require you produce a pay voucher to determine if you are giving 10%?

Absolutely not!

Thoughts?

Tithing is old testament. Giving is new testament. The 10% figure is a good guideline, but not a requirement.

 

[Tom Butler]

Tithing is old testament. Giving is new testament. The 10% figure is a good guideline, but not a requirement.

Was Jesus Old Testament or New Testament? He commended the Jewish leaders for tithing even their spices. He said they should do this.

 

[Alcott]

Abraham tithed to Melchizedek, a type of Christ.

So remember-- next time you pillage a region, kill the people and take the spoils, look up the local priest and give him a tithe. That all 'predated the law,' so it must be a part of grace.

 

[abcgrad94]

The reason that many pastors today teach the tithe is not because it is biblical but because they do not trust the Lord to provide. If the pastor was doing his job and teaching correctly the people would be living spiritual lives and there would be an abundance of scriptural giving.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with this. There are many godly pastors who preach what God lays on their hearts to preach, who DO "do their job," who read, pray, study, visit, and give of every aspect of their lives, but that does NOT mean people always listen or do right.

Please, don't put that kind of pressure on a pastor, that he's not doing his job if his church members are not doing (fill in the blank.) The pastor is doing his job if he is obeying God, period. The pastor is not the Holy Spirit and cannot MAKE people do anything. The results are up to God, NOT the pastor.

And about "trusting the Lord to provide?" Now, how do you think the Lord provides for the pastor/church? He does it through PEOPLE. I get tired of that saying, "just trust the Lord to provide" as if it lets believers off the hook. Many people use it as an excuse NOT to give, as if they expect God to "provide" by raining down coins from heaven. That's not the way it works. God uses people!

While I don't believe we are commanded to "tithe" it's not fair to use that as an excuse to blame the pastors when people are stingy with their pocketbooks.

 

[webdog]

No everyone is as spiritual as you and live on such a high spiritual plane. There are new Christians. There are many that need to be discipled.

Completely uncalled for, but I understand as to why you don't want to actually engage the topic but resort to the ad hominem (which as a moderator you should know better).

Same as above. I know you have reached sinless perfection, but we are not all there yet.

And more personal attacks...same as the above.

I gave you an example of what happens with many people. I didn't say it was necessariy "mine," although it is easy to do. I don't know that the great majority of people are devoted to fitness. The great majority of people of America are either overweight or obese. So we know that is not the case. We also know that the natural tendency of man is laziness. People give in to their own desires more often than not, unless it affects their paychecks.

We were talking about desire. Nobody desires to be lazy and overweight.

And not everyone is a good parent--giving the child everything he/she wants--giving into the child's desires. Good parenting is becoming a lost art.

Mere deflection. I don't care if everyone is a good parent, that wasn't my point. Follow along.

So, if we all gave of our talents instead of our money, the bills would still get paid??

Some might...but that's not what I said, and I think you know it.

There is not faulty premise here. If there is no giving, the finances of the church are nil; the church collapses.

...or the Church cuts back on ipad's, thousand dollar sound systems, multiple paid pastors, etc. You also have turned this into a "no giving" debate when I never even implied as such. Again...please follow along.

It is not simply Levitical law. If you think that you haven't studied your Bible. Abraham tithed. Jacob tithed. They were well before the Law. Abraham tithed to Melchizedek, a type of Christ.

Already addressed by Tater.

 

[webdog]

Was Jesus Old Testament or New Testament? He commended the Jewish leaders for tithing even their spices. He said they should do this.

...and they were still under the OT law. We are not.

 

[webdog]

So remember-- next time you pillage a region, kill the people and take the spoils, look up the local priest and give him a tithe. That all 'predated the law,' so it must be a part of grace.

:thumbs: :thumbs:

 

[freeatlast]

Was Jesus Old Testament or New Testament? He commended the Jewish leaders for tithing even their spices. He said they should do this.

I am gald that you brought that up. Jesus was Old Testament. His death and resurrection brought about the New testament but the Lord was under the OT and the Gospels are OT until His death and resurrection.

 

[freeatlast]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with this. There are many godly pastors who preach what God lays on their hearts to preach, who DO "do their job," who read, pray, study, visit, and give of every aspect of their lives, but that does NOT mean people always listen or do right.

Please, don't put that kind of pressure on a pastor, that he's not doing his job if his church members are not doing (fill in the blank.) The pastor is doing his job if he is obeying God, period. The pastor is not the Holy Spirit and cannot MAKE people do anything. The results are up to God, NOT the pastor.

And about "trusting the Lord to provide?" Now, how do you think the Lord provides for the pastor/church? He does it through PEOPLE. I get tired of that saying, "just trust the Lord to provide" as if it lets believers off the hook. Many people use it as an excuse NOT to give, as if they expect God to "provide" by raining down coins from heaven. That's not the way it works. God uses people!

While I don't believe we are commanded to "tithe" it's not fair to use that as an excuse to blame the pastors when people are stingy with their pocketbooks.

Yes I agree that godly men preach what God lays on their hearts, but God never lays on a pastors heart the tithe for the church. satan does but not God. There is no teaching in the NT for the church to tithe. The new testament giving is spelled out precisely and there is no mention of any amount to base the giving on. (the tithe) Any mention of the tithe for the church is a false teaching and not of the Lord.
In fact those who follow it are puffed up. Most will tell you how they exceed the tithe. If you notice they want others to follow what they are doing. If they gave as the3 Lord commanded each one giving from a cheerful heart as the Lord prospered them they would not care what another gave, but tithers do. Tithing is not NT giving. However those who follow the Lord in the prescribed way to give never mention how much they give. Tithe giving causes pride and is not biblical.

 

[Jim1999]

Hogwash! The tithe, as an amount, as an offering, is as biblical, and therefore NT church, as any other concept.

What Jesus condemned in Mat 23:23ff was not the act of tithing, per se, but the fact that Israelite teachers turned this act into a burden which separated a religious duty from the moral law.

As I previously said, whilst the tithe is not taught as a rule in the NT church, it is a decent guide for all church members.

As for people taking pride in what they give, we can find many things that enter lives and damage testimonies. Not everything we do in the modern church may meet NT details, but it doesn't make them wrong or non-biblical. Again, I don't wear sandals or wear a gown.

Cheers, and happy giving folks,

Jim

 

[Alive in Christ]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty
Lets add one more "what if"

Suppose you went to join a new church, what if the pastor told you he checks the financial report to see how much leaders gave. What would you do?

I wouldn't go back. Seriously.

I would flee that church like the plague.

I know of a church in a city where I used to live that, I kid you not, demanded that every member of the church MUST TITHE,, and MUST use the churches tithing envelops, and MUST identify who they are in the envelope.

If the Pastor detirmines that a person or familys giving isnt squaring with the percieved income they have, they will be called on the carpet for a "counceling session"

 

[Salty]

...I know of a church in a city where I used to live that, I kid you not, demanded that every member of the church MUST TITHE,, and MUST use the churches tithing envelops, and MUST identify who they are in the envelope.
...

It would be interesting to speak to some of those zombies, oops, I mean - members

 

[Alive in Christ]

Jim posted...

Hogwash! The tithe, as an amount, as an offering, is as biblical, and therefore NT church, as any other concept.

I completely dis-agree. I believe tithing has NO PART of Gods will regarging giving, under the new covenant.

And even under the old covenant, my understanding is that it had NOTHING to do with money. It had to do with leaving the corners of the fields un harvested,(10%) so that the poor will have food.

Under the new covenent, it is...

Let each one give as he purpases in his heart, joyfully, not under compulsion, for God loves a cheerfull giver

 

[DHK]

It would be interesting to speak to some of those zombies, oops, I mean - members

And when it comes to an important business meeting when a crucial decision must be made the 50% that don't tithe but just put in a dollar or two vote to have a new building, but those "zombies" that tithe (paying the pastor's salary, and all the other expenses), realize that they can't afford a new church building and vote against it. But of the non-tithers there is two or three more, so alas the church is sent far into debt because of a few folk who never care and never give to God's work anyway.

 

[Tater77]

Leviticus 27:30-32

30 ‘Thus all the tithe of the land, of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’S; it is holy to the LORD.
31 If, therefore, a man wishes to redeem part of his tithe, he shall add to it one-fifth of it.
32 For every tenth part of herd or flock, whatever passes under the rod, the tenth one shall be holy to the LORD.​

There is the main verses pertaining to tithing. I find verse 31 interesting!!!! How can you redeem money with money? You cant, because the tithe was crop and livestock only.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Yes I agree that godly men preach what God lays on their hearts, but God never lays on a pastors heart the tithe for the church. satan does but not God.

Freeatlast,
You talk alot about grace, but exhibit none. We can disagree about what the Bible teaches and still not believe that each other is being led by Satan.

 

[Old Union Brother]

I've read this thread with much interest. It keeps coming to my mind that demanding to see financials and asking to see a pay voucher is bordering on being as Paul put it: “ …guilty of filthy lucre”

 

[abcgrad94]

So, what's the solution when people don't believe in "tithing" but the financial needs of the church are not being met? I have noticed that when a church believes in tithing, the bills are paid, the pastor's needs are met, and missionaries are supported.

I've also noticed that when people don't believe in giving 10%, often times the church struggles financially.

Perhaps "requiring" a tithe is seen as an accountability measure? I must admit, it's very frustrating when people don't give financially and the pastor is still expected to work himself to death with no pay raise, etc. Dh and I are experiencing this and it's very, very discouraging. I can see where a church or pastor might want to "require" a certain amount to prevent this from happening.

 

[webdog]

So, what's the solution when people don't believe in "tithing" but the financial needs of the church are not being met? I have noticed that when a church believes in tithing, the bills are paid, the pastor's needs are met, and missionaries are supported.

I've also noticed that when people don't believe in giving 10%, often times the church struggles financially.

Perhaps "requiring" a tithe is seen as an accountability measure? I must admit, it's very frustrating when people don't give financially and the pastor is still expected to work himself to death with no pay raise, etc. Dh and I are experiencing this and it's very, very discouraging. I can see where a church or pastor might want to "require" a certain amount to prevent this from happening.

My church is growing, and we do not preach the tithe, in fact the bills are paid and then some.