Demanding the Tithe

[freeatlast]

I whole-heartedly agree with what you say here. Disagree and then comes the portentous replies.

No where is the church told to tithe.

Yes the tithe is no place taught in scripture for the church. There is no way to to give the tithe or base ones giving from the tithe and follow scripture. The Lord has decided how he wants the church to give and it is not the tithe or to base our giving on it.

 

[Bob Alkire]

I am not adamant on tithing. It is my opinion that it is a good place to start. The Bible does teach that we should give "a portion" of our income. What "portion" do you suggest, and out of what--the net or the gross?

You give out of what you have as the Holy Spirit leads. Many churches in our town have had a big drop in offerings as folks have lost their jobs, homes and so on, as I'm sure it is in other parts of the country.
I was taught and still believe that feeding the homeless, doing works for brothers and sisters in Christ is giving as well. Many don't have money left over but have time they can work to help the church and other Christians. Most folks as they grow in the Lord offerings go up, when one is doing correctly in most cases they find they have much more in money to give.
You say you aren't adamant on tithing and neither am I, but I'm adamant on giving as the Holy spirit leads, if it is money, work or time. Most of us as we mature, giving isn't a problem or less jobs go away.

 

[12strings]

2 things:

1. To FreeatLast: It does not make sense to call a differing teaching on Tithing legalism... Otherwise every person who had a differing teaching on anything would be called a legalist. Can a Ammilinialist say that a Premillinialist is a legalist because he things that view is right? Should we say that those who believe you should wash feet are legalists?
[I am not saying there is no right or wrong, simply that we can't say every person who differs with us on any issue is a legalist.

2. to DHK: If I believe that God teaches that we should all wear blue shirts all the time...am I a legalist, or not because it does not concern salvation?

 

[freeatlast]

2 things:

1. To FreeatLast: It does not make sense to call a differing teaching on Tithing legalism... Otherwise every person who had a differing teaching on anything would be called a legalist. Can a Ammilinialist say that a Premillinialist is a legalist because he things that view is right? Should we say that those who believe you should wash feet are legalists?
[I am not saying there is no right or wrong, simply that we can't say every person who differs with us on any issue is a legalist.

2. to DHK: If I believe that God teaches that we should all wear blue shirts all the time...am I a legalist, or not because it does not concern salvation?

There is a right and wrong. The right is what the bible teaches about the subject. If someone teaches that women cannot wear pants are they a legalist. The answer is yes at least in that area. The same with tithing. The issue of tithing is not about guessing. The bible clearly spells out how the church is to give and tithing is not part of it.

 

[DHK]

2 things:

2. to DHK: If I believe that God teaches that we should all wear blue shirts all the time...am I a legalist, or not because it does not concern salvation?

No, you are not a legalist. Some time ago I knew a preacher who would not allow anyone to preach in his pulpit that wore wire-rimmed glasses. Was he a legalist? No.

Legalism can only be related to salvation. If you say that: If you don't wear a blue shirt you will go to hell, or you are not saved, then you are a legalist. Legalism only has to do with salvation.

Churches can make all the odd and funny rules they want. You can't judge them. They are a local autonomous body with freedom of religion which we call soul liberty. You have your convictions; they have theirs. It is not legalistic to have different convictions. We live in a nation founded on freedom from persecution of religion, and tolerance of other religious beliefs, and now you express the very concept that you want to restrict other people's beliefs. That is not what Baptist's believe.

 

[DHK]

There is a right and wrong. The right is what the bible teaches about the subject. If someone teaches that women cannot wear pants are they a legalist. The answer is yes at least in that area. The same with tithing. The issue of tithing is not about guessing. The bible clearly spells out how the church is to give and tithing is not part of it.

That is simply your opinion. You display a lack of knowledge of what legalism is. We don't play by your rules nor by your refusal to understand certain terms in the Bible. You can't, willy-nilly change definitions because you don't like it.

 

[DHK]

You say you aren't adamant on tithing and neither am I, but I'm adamant on giving as the Holy spirit leads, if it is money, work or time. Most of us as we mature, giving isn't a problem or less jobs go away.

I believe that is a good attitude to have. I would only use the principle of tithing as a teaching tool for new believers. Most of them need to be taught the principles of giving.

 

[freeatlast]

That is simply your opinion. You display a lack of knowledge of what legalism is. We don't play by your rules nor by your refusal to understand certain terms in the Bible. You can't, willy-nilly change definitions because you don't like it.

OH but you have this knowledge? Right! I say it is legalism to teach that a woman should not wear pants. I also say it is legalism to teach the tithe for the church. If you want to call it my opinion that is your choice, but I say it is sin to go against the word of God for your own design and the tithe is ones own design for the church not God's according to scripture.To teach the tithe in any manner for the church is sin as well as legalism based on scripture as it goes against what the Lord has given to the church.

 

[DHK]

OH but you have this knowledge? Right! I say it is legalism to teach that a woman should not wear pants. I also say it is legalism to teach the tithe for the church. If you want to call it my opinion that is your choice, but I say it is sin to go against the word of God for your own design and the tithe is ones own design for the church not God's according to scripture.To teach the tithe in any manner for the church is sin as well as legalism based on scripture as it goes against what the Lord has given to the church.

You refuse teaching, refuse to be educated, are adamant to remain in an uneducated state. What can I do for you? If you will not do a little research for yourself let me do it for you:

One concept of legalism, the belief that salvation can be earned by obedience to laws, is referred to in various New Testament books, including Galatians. In this case, some Jews who had become Christians believed that in order to obtain salvation, both faith in Christ (as Messiah), and obedience to the Mosiac laws were required, such as the cases of the circumcision controversy and the Incident at Antioch. Generally, however, these cases are referred to as the Judaizer controversy, rather than a legalism controversy, but the two are related.
Legalism refers to any doctrine which states salvation comes strictly from adherence to the law. It can be thought of as a works-based religion. Groups in the New Testament said to be falling into this category include the Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, Judaizers, and Nicolaitans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_(theology)

In the Bible legalism is always related to salvation. It refers to a works-based salvation. Your definition is wrong. You base your arguments on a false premise, a wrong definition and therefore your arguments are all moot, of no consequence. It really doesn't matter if you say tithing is legalistic or not since you do not what legalism is, or refuse to learn what it is.

The Bible (not I) says:
But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. (1 Corinthians 14:38)
--Study what legalism is, then be prepared to discuss matters related to it, and not until then.

 

[Tom Butler]

If a Baptist church is supposed to be congregational in nature, then the idea of a pastor knowing the incomes and giving totals of the members is turning congregationalism on its head. The church is not a business and the pastor is not a CEO. Rather, if the people are paying the pastor, the pastor is the employee. Employees have no right to know how much the employers make.

This triggered a 40-year-old memory. We heard a missionary to a South American country. He told us that every church member's name was on a wall, and beside it was listed each Sunday the amount of their giving. Everybody, I mean everybody, knew what each other gave. He chuckled as he noted that the practice probably wouldn't fly in an American Baptist church.

 

[freeatlast]

You give out of what you have as the Holy Spirit leads. Many churches in our town have had a big drop in offerings as folks have lost their jobs, homes and so on, as I'm sure it is in other parts of the country.
I was taught and still believe that feeding the homeless, doing works for brothers and sisters in Christ is giving as well. Many don't have money left over but have time they can work to help the church and other Christians. Most folks as they grow in the Lord offerings go up, when one is doing correctly in most cases they find they have much more in money to give.
You say you aren't adamant on tithing and neither am I, but I'm adamant on giving as the Holy spirit leads, if it is money, work or time. Most of us as we mature, giving isn't a problem or less jobs go away.

That too is not a biblical teaching. The Spirit never leads or convicts in how much a person is to give for the church. He only convicts to give not how much. Under the law they were told how much. Under grace we are told what ever we want. The Spirit does not lead someone on how much to give. We alone are to decide how much to give and it is to come from a cheerful heart. We should not give one penny above a heart that is not cheerful about it.

 

[DHK]

That too is not a biblical teaching. The Spirit never leads or convicts in how much a person is to give for the church. He only convicts to give not how much. Under the law they were told how much. Under grace we are told what ever we want. The Spirit does not lead someone on how much to give. We alone are to decide how much to give and it is to come from a cheerful heart. We should not give one penny above a heart that is not cheerful about it.

You are very good at giving an opinion without any Scripture to back it up.

 

[freeatlast]

You refuse teaching, refuse to be educated, are adamant to remain in an uneducated state. What can I do for you? If you will not do a little research for yourself let me do it for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_(theology)

In the Bible legalism is always related to salvation. It refers to a works-based salvation. Your definition is wrong. You base your arguments on a false premise, a wrong definition and therefore your arguments are all moot, of no consequence. It really doesn't matter if you say tithing is legalistic or not since you do not what legalism is, or refuse to learn what it is.

The Bible (not I) says:
But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. (1 Corinthians 14:38)
--Study what legalism is, then be prepared to discuss matters related to it, and not until then.

I disagree.
I accept that one form of legalism is trying to get saved by anything other then grace through faith. However it is also legalism to teach we are to reach back into the OT and base our giving on the tithe. The tithe was a burden under a works system. The church is not under that burden. We are under grace and in regards to the giving of the church we are told how to give. Any suggestion towards the tithe is legalism as it puts the person again under a burden of the law.

 

[freeatlast]

You are very good at giving an opinion without any Scripture to back it up.

Here is some scripture;

But this [I say], He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

So we are not to give a penny above a cheerful heart. That is scripture Also we are not to give out of necessity. The tithe or any mention to base our giving is necessity. That would go against what is written and would be sin to teach such.

 

[DHK]

I disagree.
I accept that one form of legalism is trying to get saved by anything other then grace through faith. However it is also legalism to teach we are to reach back into the OT and base our giving on the tithe. The tithe was a burden under a works system. The church is not under that burden. We are under grace and in regards to the giving of the church we are told how to give. Any suggestion towards the tithe is legalism as it puts the person again under a burden of the law.

Let's use another example. It will show you the error of your logic.
The Jews were commanded to use instruments in their music, especially in the last five psalms.

There is no command in the NT to use musical instruments. There is a good case to be made that the early believers never used instruments until about the 4th century, and even then it was reluctantly accepted. Even as far up as the Reformation, Spurgeon would not allow any organ, piano or other instrument in his services. He said they would distract from the true worship of the believers. Wesley said that the people could have an instrument (piano) in his church as long as it was never played. Instruments were used for entertainment not for worship as far as the NT church was concerned. There is no command anywhere in the Bible for the believers to use instruments, not even an example of believers using instruments.

Thus going by the same logic you are using we come to the conclusion that if you are using instruments, which are under the law and not under grace, you are being legalistic. This is the logic you are using. You are being legalistic in your use of music. You are legalistic "to reach back in the OT...." That is what you said.

 

[DHK]

Here is some scripture;

But this [I say], He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

So we are not to give a penny above a cheerful heart. That is scripture Also we are not to give out of necessity. The tithe or any mention to base our giving is necessity. That would go against what is written and would be sin to teach such.

You express a wrong attitude and a wrong interpretation of Scripture.
Here is an example of a right one:

“William Colgate was a tither throughout his long and successful business career. He gave not merely one-tenth of the earnings of Colgate’s soap products; but he gave two-tenths, then three-tenths, and finally five-tenths of all his income to the work of God in the world. During the later days of his life he revealed the origin of his devotion to the idea of tithing. When he was sixteen years old he left home to find employment in New York City. He had previously worked in a soap manufacturing shop. When he told the captain of the canal boat upon which he was traveling that he planned to make soap in New York City the man gave him this advice: ‘Someone will soon be the leading soap maker in New York. You can be that person. But you must never lose sight of the fact that the soap you make has been given to you by God. Honor Him by sharing what you earn. Begin by tithing all you receive.’ William Colgate felt the urge to tithe because he recognized that God was the giver of all that he possessed, not only of opportunity, but even of the elements which were used in the manufacture of his products.”

That is only a part of his story. You can read the rest of it here:
http://thecashaccount.wordpress.com/2008/05/28/soap-and-toothpaste-a-testimony-about-giving/

 

[freeatlast]

Let's use another example. It will show you the error of your logic.
The Jews were commanded to use instruments in their music, especially in the last five psalms.

There is no command in the NT to use musical instruments. There is a good case to be made that the early believers never used instruments until about the 4th century, and even then it was reluctantly accepted. Even as far up as the Reformation, Spurgeon would not allow any organ, piano or other instrument in his services. He said they would distract from the true worship of the believers. Wesley said that the people could have an instrument (piano) in his church as long as it was never played. Instruments were used for entertainment not for worship as far as the NT church was concerned. There is no command anywhere in the Bible for the believers to use instruments, not even an example of believers using instruments.

Thus going by the same logic you are using we come to the conclusion that if you are using instruments, which are under the law and not under grace, you are being legalistic. This is the logic you are using. You are being legalistic in your use of music. You are legalistic "to reach back in the OT...." That is what you said.

[SIZE=+0]Well if that is logic I pass and will stick to scripture. I don't tell people to use music or not use it. If I did it would be legalism as well as sin if I suggested it was of God one way or the other. The instruments of the OT are not commands for the church. It is a total choice.

The tithe is a command for the OT. Giving is a command for the church. The difference is the OT standard was based on a percent with no choice. The NT is based completely on choice from the heart with each one not being pressured in any way to base their giving on anything but their own heart. To reach back and use the tithe as an example or standard of how to give is a violation of heart giving. Not everyone wants to give a tenth. Some want to give more. Those who do not their heart will not support the tenth. To try and persuade them to give based on the tithe is sin as it violates the the plan God gave for the church which is heart giving based on nothing but each ones own personal choice.


But this [I say], He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

We each decide and we each will receive our reward. There is no reward for giving above what our heart will stand. To try and get people to give for any reason other then from the heart without pressure is sin and legalism as it is basing the giving on a the letter instead of the spirit.

If the Pastors who teach the tithe either in part of whole would instead trust the Lord and His word the church would be supplied as the Lord intended. However because some decide to not trust what the Lord gave as how to give the church loses the blessing as well as the one giving and all because of sin and legalism.
[/SIZE]

 

[freeatlast]

You express a wrong attitude and a wrong interpretation of Scripture.
Here is an example of a right one:

That is only a part of his story. You can read the rest of it here:
http://thecashaccount.wordpress.com/2008/05/28/soap-and-toothpaste-a-testimony-about-giving/

William who? How about God and what He says? You follow this Willaim fellow and his claims if you want and I will follow the Lord and His claims.

But this [I say], He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

 

[DHK]

William who? How about God and what He says? You follow this Willaim fellow and his claims if you want and I will follow the Lord and His claims.

But this [I say], He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Colgate (of Colgate toothpaste) was just an example of a person who tithed, and then gave far more than a tithe.

The verses that you gave are good verses. They teach proportionate giving. Let's rephrase. According as you sow, you shall reap. If you sow sparingly you shall reap sparingly. If you sow abundantly, you shall reap abundantly. This teaches proportionate giving. The more you give the more you will receive (in spiritual blessings).

Let's go on.
Therefore, let everyman give according as he purposes in his heart. Now Paul had just set the premise for proportionate giving. Now he goes from that premise for the believer to pray and decide how much he should deliberately, proportionately, give. Would it be 10% or 20% or more?? What proportionate would it be? That is the question he must now answer in his heart now. Then he can give cheerfully and not grudgingly.

 

[freeatlast]

Colgate (of Colgate toothpaste) was just an example of a person who tithed, and then gave far more than a tithe.

The verses that you gave are good verses. They teach proportionate giving. Let's rephrase. According as you sow, you shall reap. If you sow sparingly you shall reap sparingly. If you sow abundantly, you shall reap abundantly. This teaches proportionate giving. The more you give the more you will receive (in spiritual blessings).

Let's go on.
Therefore, let everyman give according as he purposes in his heart. Now Paul had just set the premise for proportionate giving. Now he goes from that premise for the believer to pray and decide how much he should deliberately, proportionately, give. Would it be 10% or 20% or more?? What proportionate would it be? That is the question he must now answer in his heart now. Then he can give cheerfully and not grudgingly.

We are to give just what the heart can stand and remain cheerful. To teach that we will get more by giving more is nothing but more of the name it and claim it bunch or prosperity gospel bunch. Unless we are giving from a cheerful heart God is not interested even if we give 100%. God is not asking for more. God is saying just give and in giving He gives us an opportunity to receive blessings from Him based on what we give from the heart cheerfully. It is not about more. It is about why.

For some it may be very little and they receive much in return. Another it may be much and they receive little in return as all is based on how the Lord has prospered us and if we really gave cheerfully. Giving anything because of any guilt, pressure, or desire to gain from the Lord is rejected by Him as our giving must be from a cheerful heart not grudgingly or from necessity.


God does not want us to base our giving on a percent as that is clear from scripture. We are to give from the heart and no percent is to be used as a gage. Out heart alone is the gage that God wants us to use, nothing else. When we give no percent should come into our minds if we are giving according to the Lord. All we need to ask is this amount I am giving joyfull to me? Do I have complete peace and joy at what I a giving with absolutely no feeling of necessity. If not back off until you do feel peace and joy. We should not let the left hand know what the right had is doing. Just give what the heart will stand and not a penny more. If we are receiveing small blessings then we need to get our hearts in better shape.