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Denominational division

RAdam

New Member
Enow, if I understand him correctly, says that His appearing is different from His coming. At His appearing, the faithful will be taken in rapture before the tribulation. Then He will come the second (or third) time.

If one believes in pre-trib rapture they essentially believe in 3 comings of Christ. He came the first time to save, that is not in question. But, you say He will come the second time to rapture the faithful. Then He will come yet again to appear to all. That's 3 comings, not 2, and that is a violation of scripture.

Now, I have yet to see one shred of evidence that any primitive Christian ever believed in pre-trib rapture, and I've yet to see any evidence that anyone before the 19th century believed in it either. The proof is in the pudding. We have tons of proof of every other widely held belief amongst our Christians forefathers but this one. Therefore, I conclude that noone held this belief. If they did, they certainly never tried to write to others in order to correct their apparently erroneous beliefs, which is a curious thing indeed.

You say the primitives never searched out eschatology. If that isn't a faulty statement built on nothing I don't know what is. These were the ones who first received the book of Revelation, the ones who suffered far greater persecution than we today, and that waiting dilligently on His coming. These were the Christians to whom Paul wrote inspired letters concerning the second coming of Christ. Do you really expect us to believe that they weren't interested and didn't study it deeply, at least as deeply or even moreso than we ourselves?
 

Enow

New Member
Interesting set of rules: a fine example why every church should re-examine themselves in the faith in according to the Word of God.

The Rules & Pattern of the Church of Christ

2 By Scriptural definition (and for the purpose of applying these rules), a Christian is one who has done the following five acts of salvation (and in this order): hear, believe, repent, confess (a “Yes” response to the question “Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God?” shall be construed as a valid confession), and be baptized. Of the several purposes and benefits of baptism, one must know that baptism is “for the remission of sins” in order for God to consider it a valid baptism.

The emphasis on the believer to save himself by those steps is ignoring how Jesus saved those Gentiles in Acts 10; they believed just after Peter spoke those words and before water baptism or any confession of faith was given, the Holy Spirit was given unto them...simply because they believed. So when God gives a promise that is based on simply by believing in the Son, there is no extra required for God to act on that promise for salvation.

3 A person who has completed the above five acts of salvation, but who comes to doubt the validity of their baptism (perhaps later thinking that he/she did not fully understand the primary purpose), shall be baptized again. One of the following scenarios must be adopted: 1) that the entire previous life of the person in question shall be considered as one outside of Christ and separated from God, thus only now becoming a new child of God; or, 2) that the person in question is being rebaptized “just in case”. In this instance, it shall be assumed that the person is doing so with the knowledge that baptism is generally “for the remission of sins”, even though he/she has may not be sure if such cleansing is really needed. Regardless, any rebaptism shall be preceded with the standard ritual of confession (one’s previous life as an apparent believing Christian shall not suffice as meeting this requirement).

Goes to show why the emphasis on the believer in doing the fives steps will cause doubts. The hope is on Christ Jesus and simply by believing in Him is to have eternal life.

Hebrews 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3And this will we do, if God permit. 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Many wayward would take this verse to imply one can lose their salvation, but that is not what is being written here. It simply means that the Son of God will not crucify himself again to save that believer that fell away because to do so would be a shame to the Son of God as if the first time was not enough. The Lord will not humilate Himself in that fashion as if He was not able to save the first time.

Hebrews 10: 10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21And having an high priest over the house of God; 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

6 All those congregations who use the same generic name (excluding the location part of the name) and uniformly subscribe to these rules shall be considered as “the brotherhood”; no other Christian (one who has believed and been baptized but does not subscribe to one or more of these rules) shall be considered as being a part of “the brotherhood”.

What a thief. Exclusion of a church or a believer by a given name. I can see how that can be abused in some ways, but in regards to the faith, He bought and sealed every believer.. wayward or not. We are to withdraw from the disorderly, but by not treating them as the enemy, but by admonishing them as a brother.

2 Peter 2:1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 Thessalonians 3: 1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;....14And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

Galatians 3: 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Matthew 12:49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

By believing, we have been bought with a price, but whethor or not, we are holding to the faith is the question for all those that profess His name. That is the distinction between being a vessel unto honour in God's House and a vessel unto dishonour in God's House. That is why we are to run the race, looking to the Author and Finisher of our faith: Jesus Christ the Lord; not to ourselves to run that race as if we can finish by the flesh of what He had started by the Spirit. That is why the just shall live by faith: not religiously.

Can anyone enjoy their reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ by being religious? I think not. We get to know Him when we trust Him at His Word to help us live as His. The power in living the christian life is of God and not of us. The same goes towards our service in ministry.

2 Corinthians 4: 5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

For the Church of Christ to not speak of themselves, they need to start pruning the rules away to be just witnesses of Jesus Christ.

Just citing a few corrections by the scriptures towards the list provided by DHK of the set of rules from this one Church of Christ. There are more corrections to be given towards that list, but those ones stood out more.
 

Enow

New Member
Enow, if I understand him correctly, says that His appearing is different from His coming. At His appearing, the faithful will be taken in rapture before the tribulation. Then He will come the second (or third) time.

If one believes in pre-trib rapture they essentially believe in 3 comings of Christ. He came the first time to save, that is not in question. But, you say He will come the second time to rapture the faithful. Then He will come yet again to appear to all. That's 3 comings, not 2, and that is a violation of scripture.

Sorry, brother. Clarity is needed here.

There are three harvests.. pre-tribulation... post tribulation.. and at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ.

The pre-tribulation harvest is at His appearing...

The post tribulation harvest is at His coming when He sets up His kingdom on earth for that 1000 year reign.

At the end of that 1000 year reign is another harvest, but I did not say there was a third coming cause He is already there. Just a third harvest.

Sorry for any confusion on my part.:type:
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Just citing a few corrections by the scriptures towards the list provided by DHK of the set of rules from this one Church of Christ. There are more corrections to be given towards that list, but those ones stood out more.
The only reason I posted it is because the various COCers on this board will readily admit that they don't subscribe to every jot and tittle of that particular statement of faith. Thus one can rightly conclude that there is not complete unity and conformity in doctrine in even the COC itself--that which the COC "denomination" likes to take pride in.
 

Agnus_Dei

New Member
The only reason I posted it is because the various COCers on this board will readily admit that they don't subscribe to every jot and tittle of that particular statement of faith. Thus one can rightly conclude that there is not complete unity and conformity in doctrine in even the COC itself--that which the COC "denomination" likes to take pride in.
I'll have to admit that once I left the Independent Baptist Church in search of the NT Church, I did take a quick look at the Church of Christ, due to their claims to the NT Church. But, it was a quick look and honestly the IFB Church had a better argument to the NT Church than the CoC, but eventually even the IFB Church claims they used runs aground as well.

In XC
-
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I'll have to admit that once I left the Independent Baptist Church in search of the NT Church, I did take a quick look at the Church of Christ, due to their claims to the NT Church. But, it was a quick look and honestly the IFB Church had a better argument to the NT Church than the CoC, but eventually even the IFB Church claims they used runs aground as well.

In XC
-
A Baptist believes that faith and faith alone in the finished work of Christ saves. That is all. It is very simple.

You are way off base Agnus. Take another look at this statement:
32 These rules shall be observed without variation of any kind. Anyone who fails to know and follow these rules perfectly is deemed to be lost eternally unless he/she repents.

No Baptist believes that. The COC believes in a works based salvation. They do not believe that salvation is by grace through faith. There is no similarity whatsoever.
 

RAdam

New Member
You've still got Jesus coming 3 times. You've got Him coming pre-trib and post-trib in addition to the first coming when He came to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
 

Marcia

Active Member
You've still got Jesus coming 3 times. You've got Him coming pre-trib and post-trib in addition to the first coming when He came to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Appearance and coming are not one and the same.

Coming is actually coming to the earth. This has happened once and will happen again, only one time.

"Appearance" is for believers only and it is not Jesus coming back to the earth.
 

Enow

New Member
Do all COCers believe this way?

One can hope that every church now will re-examine themselves in the faith so as to have that church represent each member of their faith correctly. Otherwise, why be identify with a church that misrepresents their faith?

20 There shall be no clapping, raising of hands, or any other gesture or indecent or disorderly action during the worship service. However, a congregation is allowed to suspend this rule during special child-oriented services such as Vacation Bible Schools or Youth Rallies.

1 Timothy 2: 7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. 8I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Raising of hands is hardly a disorderly practise if being done in prayer or in singing since it is being done as unto the Lord.

30 All major doctrinal issues must be understood and taught without error. This includes (but not necessarily limited to): that we are not predestined to salvation, that it is possible for a Christian to lose his/her salvation, that speaking in tongues and other such miraculous gifts came to an end at the completion of the writing of the NT, that there will be no Rapture nor 1000 year reign of Christ, and that Heaven and Hell are literal. However, this requirement of perfect understanding shall not apply to the issue of the indwelling and operation of the Holy Spirit.

Yeah. Definitely can say that the Church of Christ does not represent my faith by the emboldened statements above.

For all those Church of Christ that believe it is possible to lose your salvation: Is this the reason why below?

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. NKJV

2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. NKJV

Hebrews 2:11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, NKJV

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. NKJV

I can only guess as to why the Church of Christ believe in that way, but check out the King James Bible for those verses, okay?

1 Corinthians 1: 18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. KJB

2 Corinthians 2: 15For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: KJB

Hebrews 2: 11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, KJB

Hebrews 10:14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. KJB

As a little leaven leavens into a whole lump, it can steal the peace of God that we are supposed to have in Jesus Christ.

Can others find salvation in the other Bible versions? Yes.

Can others discern good and evil by the meat of the word in the other Bible versions? I have to say "no". Even though the salvation message can be found in the other Bible versions, the wayward still holds to those contrary verses of that version. That little leaven leavens into a whole lump. :BangHead:

All I am saying is that scriptures are to testify of Jesus Christ ( John 5:39) so if anyone is reading a version of the Bible that makes you doubt your salvation or places the emphasis of the hope of the Gospel on YOU or places the meaning of God's words as being on the Holy Spirit when it is on Jesus Christ as declared by the King James Bible... I would strongly recommend relying on the King James Bible for the truth of God's words for the true meat to discern false teachings.

Just check out the King James version of any verse whenever any believer or churches start re-examining themselves in the faith. I had given the History of the Keeping of God's Words in the History forum of where the Recieved Text came from.. Antioch.. where scriptures of the NT declare the assembly of disciples that love His words would keep the meaning of His words.

I am just sharing this to show my frustration as to how it is impossible for me to correct false teaching unless I emphasize using the King James Bible. :BangHead: Still, I rely on God to cause the increase as He is the One that ministers.

So for those that believe you can lose your salvation, do check whatever verses you are looking at that the Church of Christ is using to teach that you can lose your salvation.. and check out the King James Bible. If you do not have one... go to

http://http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/

You can have access to all Bible versions there and not just the King James Bible to compare. May God restore unto you the joy of your salvation BECAUSE.. how can we be witnesses of the Good News in Christ Jesus if we have not really received salvation yet? Christianity would be just like any other religion where the hope is on YOU.. not on Jesus for life.

Just a strong word of advise. Check out the KJB. Take it or leave it. FYI.

As for the italicized statement, current tongues gained by another baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes without interpretation is not the Biblical gift of tongues, but the tongues that is found in the world which is gibberish. Just because I see nothing but an abuse of tongues in churches where the Bible is present, does not mean that God is not ministering elsewhere in the world where the Bible is not available. I cannot say that tongues have ended, but I can discern the tongues and the use of tongues with this wide variety of abuse in the churches that have the scriptures, I can see why God would cease that manifestation of the gift of the Spirit, especially when He led Paul by the Holy Spirit to exhort believers to seek te gift of prophesy over ALL spiritual gift to seek if any believer was to seek a singular gift...even over seeking the gift of tongue as a singular gift to seek because tongues is not a stand alone gift.

6. non-baptized not allowed to read Scripture

2 Timothy 3:15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Seems the practise of looking to the scriptures is a way for non-believers to become wise unto salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. What better way than in a company of believers for God to minister through? Should not the church seek the lost and not seek to finish the planned sermon of the day?

Just citing a few more examples as to why we all, including me, must examine ourselves in the faith, trusting the Lord to be Our Good Shepherd as well as Our Saviour to help us to be found abiding in Him in keeping the faith in Him and not move away from the hope of the Gospel which is also in Him as well.

May God cause the increase and help us to be witnesses of the Good News.
 

RAdam

New Member
Hebrews 9:28 - "and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

Notice that the author here points us to an appearing of Jesus Christ and calls it the second time. Did He appear before? Obviously. When? The context declares that it was when he "was once offered to bear the sins of many", when He was incarnate in human flesh and died and rose again the 3rd day according to the scriptures. Alright, there's the first appearing, or the first coming. Now we are told of a second time, a second appearing, a second coming. The appearing of Christ and the coming of Christ are one and the same. The text is telling us that God's people, those to whom this sacrifice is applied, those who now look for His appearing, groaning and travailing in pain together waiting for redemption of their bodies, He will appear in this manner: without sin unto salvation. In other words, He won't bear sin this time like last time. He won't be in the likeness of sinful flesh. Instead, He will be in all His glory and will bring salvation (the resurrection) to His sheep. When He appears the second time, this will be how the elect see Him. But, the damned shall see something far different. They shall see their righteous judge and will cry for mountains to fall on them and hide them from the face of this one who shall judge them and cast them into everlasting fire. Praise God that He has saved us from that.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
Enow, if I understand him correctly, says that His appearing is different from His coming. At His appearing, the faithful will be taken in rapture before the tribulation. Then He will come the second (or third) time.
As I say, there are a lot of bad arguments made. Just because someone makes bad arguments for something doesn't mean the the something is to be rejected. It means the argument should be. I haven't read what he writes, so I don't know what he says. Once I got to the "seven weeks of marriage" argument, I abandoned it.

If one believes in pre-trib rapture they essentially believe in 3 comings of Christ. He came the first time to save, that is not in question. But, you say He will come the second time to rapture the faithful. Then He will come yet again to appear to all. That's 3 comings, not 2, and that is a violation of scripture.
You would have to show that. Pre Tribulationists believe what they believe because of what Scripture says, not in spite of it. You may disagree, and that's fine. But you haven't shown it to be a violation of Scripture.

Now, I have yet to see one shred of evidence that any primitive Christian ever believed in pre-trib rapture, and I've yet to see any evidence that anyone before the 19th century believed in it either. The proof is in the pudding. We have tons of proof of every other widely held belief amongst our Christians forefathers but this one. Therefore, I conclude that noone held this belief. If they did, they certainly never tried to write to others in order to correct their apparently erroneous beliefs, which is a curious thing indeed.
but again, notice the bad argument: Because I haven't seen it, it doesn't exist. That is far more fallacious. Furthermore, it is irrelevant. the question is "What does the Bible teach?"

You say the primitives never searched out eschatology.
No I didn't.

Do you really expect us to believe that they weren't interested and didn't study it deeply, at least as deeply or even moreso than we ourselves?
Yes, look at the evidence. Out of the all the writings of the church, very few are on eschatology until the last few centuries. You aren't even depending on what I know for that. You can see it in the evidence. Furthermore, you have to realize that you can prove just about anything from church history. But church history is not the authority. The Bible is.
 

RAdam

New Member
Perhaps that was because there was very little debate about eschatology until recent times. I could be wrong about that, but I think it's a fair assumption. Consider the history of Christian writing. In the 18th century you had a lot salvation by grace and preservation writing, particularly among the baptists, because that was a major point of contention at that time. You had very little writing about means (the gospel or direction operation of the Holy Ghost) of regeneration, because there was little to no debate. Fast forward to the 19th century and you have a ton of writing about means. Why? There was fierce debate on the issue. Everyone was writing to either refute the claims of another or to clarify their claims. It could be that eschatology was the same way. Christians in past centuries seemed to be pretty consistent on their beliefs of a second literal coming of Jesus Christ and the bodily resurrection of the dead. It was only after men starting supporting a pre-trib, and the reactionary mid and post trib, rapture that men starting writing extensively about it.

I agree that the bible matters most, but what the primitives believed is very important. If Paul is to be believed, then the church is the pillar and ground of the truth. I have a hard time believing that no Christians had the events of the end of time correct, or at least mostly right. I would like to see one shred of evidence that primitive Christians believed this. I haven't yet. Without that it appears to be a new doctrine invented 200 years ago. I have a hard time believing that the great theologians that had access to the apostles and those that learned from them never saw this doctrine if it is taught in scripture, which by the way it is not.
 

Enow

New Member
The only reason I posted it is because the various COCers on this board will readily admit that they don't subscribe to every jot and tittle of that particular statement of faith. Thus one can rightly conclude that there is not complete unity and conformity in doctrine in even the COC itself--that which the COC "denomination" likes to take pride in.

Ah! An overall view of the set of rules from one Church of Christ for those memebers on here to see if they really agree with those set of rules to really say that there is unity in all Churches of Christ.

May God cause the increase in your service to expose a false pride in one's church.
 

Enow

New Member
As I say, there are a lot of bad arguments made. Just because someone makes bad arguments for something doesn't mean the the something is to be rejected. It means the argument should be. I haven't read what he writes, so I don't know what he says. Once I got to the "seven weeks of marriage" argument, I abandoned it.

My bad. I meant seven weeks of honeymoon. That is the traditional Jewish honeymoon after the marriage, or so I have been told. They use that time to get to know one another intimately to be one as a couple.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
My bad. I meant seven weeks of honeymoon. That is the traditional Jewish honeymoon after the marriage, or so I have been told. They use that time to get to know one another intimately to be one as a couple.
The point is that it is a bad argument. It is not exegetical and theological.
 

Enow

New Member
The point is that it is a bad argument. It is not exegetical and theological.

Ah, well. I leave it on God to cause the increase.:jesus:

I am glad it isn't on me, otherwise...:BangHead:

Certainly would take away the peace of God in ministry.

We shall all see soon enough, right? I mean, if there is no pre-trib rapture event.... once that command is given out to rebuild that Jewish Temple, we can count 7 years and KNOW the approximate return of Christ when He comes back with the saints to do battle at the valley of Armegeddon.

So when does the judgment falling on the House of God occur?

1 Peter 4:17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Seeing how it must occur first, it would explain how the saints are "coming back" with Jesus because they ( as vessels unto honour) were where He was.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Sounds like the bridegroom getting the place ready for the bride to me.

That is why the call is to watch and to be ready, and not be caught unaware.

Kind of hard to catch anyone unaware once the command to build the Temple is given out.

Just explaining by His grace why I believe the pre-trib rapture. If the despensation of the Gospel went to the Gentiles because the Jews rejected the chief cornerstone, then due to the prophesied falling away of the faith, judgement will fall on the House of God at which time after the rapture as the foolish virgins get left behind but then they will have oil in their lamps to be witnesses of Him, the despensation of the Gospel will go back to the Jews, the 144,000 witnesses.

The fundamental shift occurs at His appearing. That is how the 144,000 become believers all of a sudden.

Is it not strange that one third of the earth was burned up and fallen is Babylon where everyone traded with her? The same Babylon where the voice of the bridegroom and the bride will no longer be heard in her.

The Western Hemisphere is one third of the earth. Take USA out with all the media in the Western Hemisphere... you have the catalyst for the New World Order and a major distraction like the struggle for survival and for calm in the world will be the primary focus to shift from all news footage of the appearing of Our Lord Jesus Christ... because once those doors are shut, the accuser of our brethren knows he has only a short time left. No way is he gonna let the news be monopolize by the rapture event.

Once those doors are shut, there will be no more voice of the bridegroom for the bride wherein there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Such is the judgment on the House of God for not being found abiding in Him so that by the appearing, He will restore them to the path of righteousness for His name's sake as He will continue His work in them so that, even though WW III is going to wipe out the Western Hemisphere after the rapture, the saints left behind.. and the new believers.. will not love their lives unto death.

To live is Christ... to die is gain.

That is what I see coming from His words. By His grace, I have placed my trust in the Lord as My Good Shepherd as well as My Saviour to prevent me from falling and to present me faultless to His glory. Amen.

Anyway, I leave it on God to cause the increase. I shall thank Him if you see where I am coming from and why... even if you do not agree with that view. Believing in the pre-trib rapture is not a requirement to be raptured. Abiding in Him by keeping the faith in Him as Your Good Shepherd as well as Saviour is how we get to know Him as the power in living the christian life is of God.
 

Marcia

Active Member
Enow, just a word of advice. Your posts are usually too long and most people will not read them, or they will just read a little of them. I am not reading them at all.

A few others here do this as well, and I think their posts are unread by most people here. People just don't have time to read such long posts.
 

Enow

New Member
Enow, just a word of advice. Your posts are usually too long and most people will not read them, or they will just read a little of them. I am not reading them at all.

A few others here do this as well, and I think their posts are unread by most people here. People just don't have time to read such long posts.

Okay. Thanks for your advise done in love. :love2:

I do put the work of the ministry as being on Him to do anyway.

I'll shall trust the Lord to help me give a short answer... even though past experiences tells me that a question will follow which is why I try to cover all the basis by His grace. Better to inform fully now then not be around later to answer any future question.

James 4:13Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: 14Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. 15For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. 16But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Just sharing a partial motivation for why my posts are so long.

I put my trust in :jesus: to direct my footsteps & my fingertips in serving Him.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
Ah, well. I leave it on God to cause the increase.
I didn't read most of your post, but "leaving it to God" isn't the issue. The issue that God has given us support for the pretrib rapture in his word, and "seven week honeymoon" isn't one of them. You do damage to the issue when you argue using wrong arguments. If you are going to argue for pretrib, then use the arguments that God gives in Scripture. Don't make up your own.
 

FlyForFun

New Member
Enow, just a word of advice. Your posts are usually too long and most people will not read them, or they will just read a little of them. I am not reading them at all.

A few others here do this as well, and I think their posts are unread by most people here. People just don't have time to read such long posts.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

:thumbs:
 
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