"depart from the faith"

[Briguy]

Ed, I think we have stumbled right into one of the bigger Christian issues. You can depart from something you know, right? I can say that I don't believe the Bears won the NFC Central (in fact as a Packer fan I don't accept that at all) but it doesn't change the truth. But I can choose to depart from what I have seen with my own eyes on TV. Because being a new creation requires more then knowledge of God or simple belief in God it requires a response (accepting the gift as we have said in different ways) to the actions of Jesus on the cross, some depart from faith they have knowledge of but never became part of. Your question on departing was very good. I hope my answer didn't get lost in the example. Let me know!

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Sir Ed]

I think I disagree. The verse says they depart from the faith, that means they had it (not just had knowledge of it) prior to departing from it.

BTW: We now have another thing in common. I am a Packers fan myself.

 

[Harald]

Hi. I believe the words "the faith" (Gr. tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, i.e. the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines, cf. Jude 3, 2John 9 (Christ's doctrine). As the Bible interprets itself I believe it is biblical to look for more clues from other NT passages. I believe we have a parallell passage in 2Thess. 2:3-12. There we have the word apostasy (Gr. apostasia), just as we have its verb form in the 1Timothy passage (verse 1, apostêsontai) under consideration. This 1 Tim. passage does not refer to some elected and saved of God going to hell, for that is impossible according to God's word. It refers to certain/some (Gr. tines)who are in a state of professing adherence to the New Testament apostolic faith, Christ's doctrine, but who nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice apostasize from it (cf. Tit. 1:16, 2Tim. 3:5), giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Those who do so may not even be aware of it, but they may sincerely believe they are doctrinally orthodox. I believe the beginning of such a major departing from the apostolic NT faith was evidenced as the Roman Catholic church began to come into existence in the 300's AD. This harlot church, if I am correctly informed, imposes on its clergy that they be unmarried. This same professing body has many demonic doctrines such as the transsubstantiation heresy, purgatory, papal infallibility, Mary's perpetual virginity and her being co-mediator with Christ etc. etc. And out of this mother harlot has sprung dozens and again dozens of smaller daughter harlot synagogues of Satan (cf. Rev. 2:9).

Harald

 

[Briguy]

Sir Ed, what do you think of H's more detailed response? I believe he and I are saying the same thing. We may be at an in-pass here because we differ on what is meant "in the faith" in this context.

Hey, Glad to hear you at least have some sense and are a Packer fan (ha ha ha). Are you a current or former Wisconsin person?

God bless my friend,
Brian

 

[Eladar]

Harald said pretty much what I said earlier, that this is not talking about the elect, but a group who at one time believe but who's seed dies.

The question you ask is one that is impossible for a "once saved always saved" person to answer. If you read what the verse is saying, then it says that someone who accepts Jesus as Lord and appears to be one of the elect(in every way) will depart and "lose salvation".

But of course this person was never saved, therefore how can you lose something you never had(This is something that really bugs me about some people, self proclamation of salvation!).

As Sir Ed has been trying to point out, the scripture says depart. This means to be in a certain state and to leave it. It does not say departs from salvation, it says departs from the beliefs that will save.

Sir Ed, trying to get a "once saved always saved" person to admit that this scripture is saying what it is saying is impossible. For if they acknowledged what it said they could no longer declare themselves or anyone else saved.

If they couldn't do that, then they couldn't have their salvation stories.

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

[Briguy]

Tuor, call me a moron but didn't your post make both arguments? which then cancels itself out and renders it worthless!!

-In Christ forever,
Brian

 

[Eladar]

No it didn't.

The problem comes when someone makes the assumption that once someone believes they are automatically apart of the elect.

If you make this assumption, then you would think that I was saying both.

According to this scripture, believing God's truth and accepting Jesus as Lord does not equal elect. There are those who will depart from God's truth and not be saved.

 

[Sir Ed]

I believe Harald is grasping at straws and begging the question. Plus, the fact that he couldn't help but turn this into some anti-RCC diatribe just makes me that less impressed.

Brian, my Dad's family is all from Wisconsin. FYI: My mom was from Georgia. You wanna talk about interesting dialects at family get togethers!

Tuor, I'm not trying to get them to admit anything. I've given up on that long ago on this board! I was really just trying to see how people interpret the verse.

 

[Eladar]

In other words, there are those who will believe yet are not saved. They are those within whom the seed grows, yet dies. It is the same seed that will grow to full maturity and bear fruit. The seed takes the same growth. It is just that the roots need to go strong enough, penetrating the individual's soul, so that it will survive the bad times.

Ed,

I see. I just don't see how this verse can be reasonably interpretted any other way. Depart means depart.

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

[Pauline]

There certainly are scriptures showing that some of the brethren (Christians) did depart from following Jesus, from the Faith.

Jn 6,66 is one verse that shows this happening. BTW, DHK, did you notice the numbers on that verse?

1 Jn 5,16 tells of a brother sinning a sin unto death, a mortal sin, unto the second death from the context of the verse.

Pauline

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Pauline ]

 

[Eladar]

Gnostics who were at one time apart of the Christian community. People who were apart of the community, but then departed. At one time appeared saved, but in actuality were not.

 

[Pauline]

If they were really Gnostics -- they were never saved, never Christians.

Pauline

 

[Eladar]

They weren't gnostics when they were "saved". Someone had to come in and tweak their beliefs and lead them astray. It happens, but not to the elect.

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

[Pauline]

Tuor, you must be hovering over the key board? Yes, I am too.

I'm always amazed at how many scripture passages those who believe in eternal security will ignore in order to hold to their doctrine.

Pauline

 

[Eladar]

Why yes I am.

But I'm not any longer. Have a good day!

 

[Lorelei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pauline:
There certainly are scriptures showing that some of the brethren (Christians) did depart from following Jesus, from the Faith.

Jn 6,66 is one verse that shows this happening. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent example! This verse actually tells you that not everyone who was following Jesus believed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[5] and they are life.
64
Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65
He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
66
From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There you go. An example from the Bible that those who "departed" the faith were actually those who never "believed" in the first place.

~Lorelei

[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

[Bible Believing Bill]

No Sir Ed. In Lorelei example they were simply fans of the choir, but had not joined. That means they never had the faith to begin with. They knew the choir had talent, they knew the choir is wonderful, they knew the choir is the place they should be, but they choose to skip the audition for the choir and sing with their friends.

Bill

 

[Briguy]

Pauline here is 1 John 5:16 and some others around it.
5:14: And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
5:15: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
5:16: If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
5:17: All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
5:18: We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Your conclusion of this verse is just not accurate. You pluck out a verse that is in a line of thought and try to make it say what you want (of couse others have said the same of me) but if you read carefully it does not say what you thought it did.

Tuor, There is a verse that says that the Spirit (Holy that is) bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God, yet you want to say we cannot know for sure we are part of the elect. This verse seems to slash that idea to peices.

I will start new thread on eternal security!

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Eladar]

Lorelei,

Is there a difference between believing you believe and actually believing?

 

[Lorelei]

I think the difference is in the motivation of the belief. It isn't believing the facts. Those who believe the facts think they are saved, for they "believe", but the Bible warns us about this.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

James is trying to drive this point home. It isn't works that save you, but if you have no works to show that you are saved, then you probably aren't. Why? Because you have to "believe with your heart", not with your head. As he said, the devils "believe" it. They know the message, they know it's true, they know their fate and they tremble in fear. Belieiving it is true does not save you. Believing with your heart and actually planting that seed by making Christ Lord of your life does.

~Lorelei

I think this answers the question in both threads, so I will cheat and copy and paste it. Sorry, but it's time to feed the baby!