Descended into hell

[Aaron]

"It is finished," means just that. "It is finished." His work and suffering on earth has been accomplished. He has glorified His Father.

Does that mean He didn't have to die? I think we're agreed that He did have to die, and that His body had yet to remain in the grave three days.

My point is this. Just as the saying "It is finished," does not mean that Christ did not have to go forward and die, it does not mean that death did not include the torment of hell.

[ November 11, 2002, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

[rkbo]

Gal 3:13
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
(KJV)

When did he redeem us? When was he made a curse?

When he hung on the cross.

Matt 26:28
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(KJV)

Did he shed his blood in the grave?

He shed his blood on the cross?

1 Pet 2:24
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
(KJV)

Where did he bear our sins?

That's right. ON the tree.

Heb 7:26-27
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
(KJV)

Now folks, a sacrifice is a sacrifice while in our time space continuum. The act of sheeding the blood is the sacrifice not anything that happen after.

 

[wjrighter]

to whoever! remember the story of rich man & lazarus? me thinks he went to a place prepared to get the o.t. saints. take'm up i'm thinking,course you know what thinking can do to us humans............bill

 

[Phillip]

Maybe I overlooked it, but I have not seen a reference to the thief on the cross. The one that Jesus told that today he would Him in paradise. Paradise has been translated in many ways including the holding place of the dead before heaven, but it is definitely not hell.

Jesus cried tears of blood because his suffering on the cross was FAR more than human suffering (which the cross was very cruel), but Jesus had always been one with God and when he had all the sin, every sin we commit every day dumped on him, the Father could not tolerate sin and momentarily turned his back on Jesus leaving him alone for the first and only time in eternity. For God, The Creator, Who cannot tolerate sin to have all of man's sin dumped on him while in the human form was the ultimate in punishment and death. Jesus asked the Father why He had forsaken Him? This makes a statement to us explaining what was happening on the cross.

As others say, there is no scripture that would indicate that Jesus went to hell.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Aaron:
Listening to Hank Hanegraaff the other day, I again heard him refer to those who believe that Jesus descended into hell as borderline heretics.

I didn't hear this particular show, so I don't know what the context was, but I've heard him speak on this subject often enough that I would guess that he was talking about those in the Word of Faith movement (such as Hinn, copeland, et al) who believe that, not only did Jesus descend to Hell, but that He had to suffer there, Himself, to earn His own salvation before He could earn ours.

Do you remember which day it was? You can listen to archived shows through http://www.oneplace.com/ministries and I would be curious to hear that.

 

[Sularis]

I wandered back in - and had to laugh

The souls in prison - which have a condition to them - thus limit the part of hell Christ in theory went to

What would justify a pre-flood dispensation?
What group could exist as a pre-flood group?

For number one you would have to see number two

Now I find this more of an amusing theory - and not something i have thoroughly researched - although there a few wackos who in some manner agree with my "suggestion"

The pre-flood group would be the "Nephilim" or the originators of that race - the sons of God that left their first estate - ie made themselves part of mankind and left claim to their angelic background - and as such God may have "decided" ah what the hey - it also touches on the possibility of the Catholic viewpoint of Purgatory - or "soul sleep"

see barnes new testament notes - it touches on it as a possibility

But the jamiesson F&B one notes the the word is not in theory preaching - but rather heralding

I like to think God went down to the angels that left Him to get it on with mortal women and various pleasures and simply went Nyah Nyah - in obviously a far more dignified manner

 

[LadyEagle]

Oh, Aaron, you really started one this time!

Consider this:

Remember hell (hades) and paradise were side by side in the abode of the earth. One could look from one into the other. A great gulf separated the two so that never the two could meet (Luke 16:19-31).

We are told by Peter of some very unusual happenings concerning those three days. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also HE WENT AND PREACHED UNTO THE SPIRITS IN PRISON;" (I Peter 3:18-19).


"For, for this cause was THE GOSPEL PREACHED ALSO TO THEM THAT ARE DEAD, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit" (I Peter 4:6).

These scriptures are not telling us that these people were given another chance. It is telling us that Jesus proclaimed that He was the Messiah, the promise of God had been fulfilled, and that he had power over death, hell, and was victorious.

Colossians tells us the outcome, " And HAVING SPOILED PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS, He (Christ) made a shew of them openly, TRIUMPHING OVER THEM in it" (2:15). These principalities and powers are hellish, not heavenly. These are Satan's demons and servants. Jesus took them on in their own den and ravaged them.

Jesus stripped the weapons and armour from the defeated ones, the evil powers and authorities (Ephesians 6:12). Jesus subjected them with His God-given power. He made a public spectacle of them, exhibiting them as the powerless powers they really were.

Jesus bruised Satan's head. The promise given in the garden of Eden was fulfilled. "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; IT SHALL BRUISE THY HEAD, AND THOU SHALT BRUISE HIS HEEL" (Genesis 3:15).

The serpent (Satan) that bruised Jesus' heel was crushed by that same heel through the crucifixion as He broke free from the gates of hell.

I John 3:8 tells us, "He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that HE MIGHT DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL."

Hebrews 2:14 tells us, "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; THAT THROUGH DEATH HE MIGHT DESTROY HIM THAT HAD THE POWER OF DEATH, THAT IS, THE DEVIL;" A titanic combat is what happened during those three days. Satan had to experience the absolute triumph of Christ over all creation.

Psalm 107:16 tells us, "For HE HATH BROKEN THE GATES OF BRASS, AND CUT THE BARS OF IRON IN SUNDER." No one had ever broken through the gates of hell. Jesus did! By doing so He seized the keys of death and hell that had been given to Satan by Adam at the fall. Revelation tells this fact, "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I AM ALIVE FOR EVERMORE, Amen; AND HAVE THE KEYS OF HELL AND OF DEATH" (1:18).

It was impossible for death to keep it's hold on Jesus, because Jesus defeated death and took the keys.

Hosea tells us of this promise, "I (Christ) WILL RANSOM THEM FROM THE POWER OF THE GRAVE; I WILL REDEEM THEM FROM DEATH: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: ..." (13:14).

In I Corinthians, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" (15:55).

By His death, Jesus saved us not only from sin, but from death and all the powers of evil. Did all this take three days? I don't think so, but no one knows. If it didn't, then what did Jesus do the rest of the time? Stay in paradise with the saints.

The cross was the victory won and the resurrection was the victory endorsed, proclaimed, and demonstrated.


As Jesus ascended He took with Him all those saints that abode in paradise. "Wherefore he saith, WHEN HE ASCENDED UP ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?" (Ephesians 4:8-9).

Before this happened no one had ascended into heaven, they were in Paradise. "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand," (Acts 2:34). Jesus stopped for a moment at the tomb on that first Easter to show His followers that He had truly arisen (John 20:11-18).

But He had not yet presented Himself to the Father, thus the request to not be touched. After offering Himself as the perfect Lamb to the Father in heaven. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption (Hebrews 9:12). ..., He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself (Hebrews 9:26). He then returned for 40 days to share the final teaching with His people.

Then Jesus ascended to His proper place, the right hand of the Father. Hebrews 10:13 tells us that "From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool." or until "... the devil that deceived them is cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" (Revelation 20:10). The evil principalities and powers, which had been deprived of their weapons were now in consequence put under the feet of Jesus and made subject to Him.

http://zbh.com/sermons/jcinhel2.htm

Oh, Hallelujah! What a Savior! Thank You, Jesus!

 

[Aaron]

Smoke_Eater,
I believe it was last Friday's program. I'm not sure, though.

SheEagle911,
Thank you for a well thought out reply. I do disagree somewhat. I believe that Paradise is Heaven. In 2 Corinthians 12:2 Paul speaks of a man he knew who was caught up to the "third heaven." The Third Heaven is God's abode. The atmosphere is the first heaven; outer space is the second heaven; and God's abode is the Third Heaven. Paul begins his story in verse 2 calling it the Third Heaven, then he digresses into when and how he knew this man. When he picks up the story again in verse 4 he calls the Third Heaven "Paradise."

In Revelation 2:7, the promise of eternal life is couched in the figurative terms of Eden, "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

Though many believe the account of the rich man and Lazarus to be historical, I believe it to be parabolic. A parable is not an allegory. Not every aspect of a parable is significant. A parable is a story with a moral. The point that Jesus is getting across in this parable is that our lot in this life is not indicative of whether God has received us or not. The rich man received his good things during his life, but they did not result in his salvation. Lazarus received evil things in his life, but that was in no way indicative of his estate before God.

I do not believe it to be a dissertation on hell.

Phillip,
Our temporal, three-dimensional thinking does not transfer into eternal realities. There is no reckoning of "days" in hell or in heaven. It is an existence quite unfathomable to our limited, carnal minds. But the Eternal Christ (1 Tim. 1:17) is the Beginning and the End all at the same "time." (Rev. 21:6) Though it does not yet appear, we "sit together in heavenly places" with Christ, Eph. 2:6.

Christ's statement, "Today," only meant something at the moment both He and the (former) thief (whose sins were placed on Christ) were physically alive. Christ is merely saying here, "Today, (now) thou shalt be with me (you have the promise of sitting together with me) in Paradise (heavenly places)." To this the Psalmist and the Apostle testify saying, "Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts . . . ) . . . But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. . . . While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation," Psalm 95:7; Hebrews 3:7-15.

While there is life, as long as it can be called "Today," there is hope. It cannot be called "Today" in heaven or in hell.

Also, there is no record of when the thief died. I have been told that a crucified individual could live up to three days on a cross. But the malefactors did not spend even one day. They were taken down for the Sabbath. I doubt the thief died the same day.

[ November 11, 2002, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

[post-it]

At this period of time, the Greek hell (hades) contained both a part of torture as well as prisons, as well as areas where men dwelled without the negative effects we Christians have been taught to envision.

Reading all the references listed in this thread about Christ's decent into hades shows the clear Greek version of hell in vivid detail. I believe this is where Christ visited hell.

 

[Travis1980]

I've always assumed the "hell" Christ experienced on the Cross was when God turned his back on the Son, and Christ was seperated from the presence of God as in "My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me?"

 

[Frogman]

I've always assumed the "hell" Christ experienced on the Cross was when God turned his back on the Son, and Christ was seperated from the presence of God as in "My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me?"

I agree with this statement. Christ, I believe suffered for the sins of men while alive, he was plunged to the very depths of the wrath of God, at this time, he tasted death for every man, thus, when He said, "It is finished" He meant, the work of righteousness, permitting Him to receive gifts for men.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Travis1980:
I've always assumed the "hell" Christ experienced on the Cross was when God turned his back on the Son, and Christ was seperated from the presence of God as in "My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me?"

And what of the millions that are separated from God now? It can't be said that they are in hell. No, to taste death for all men, Christ had to have borne God's wrath and righteous indignation not only on His body, but upon His soul as well.

 

[Aaron]

It was mentioned lately that the article in question was a late addition to the Apostle's Creed.

The time it was added has nothing to do with its truth. The 2000 BFM added new articles on abortion and a male pastorate, neither of which were included in the creed as originally published.

[ November 12, 2002, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

[Travis1980]

Well, like the man said Christ didnt say "Today you will be with me in hell" He said "paradise" and "It is Finished" and "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit."

Personally, i've never understood the argument that Christ didnt suffer enough. He was sinless, He didnt deserve any of it. Not to be taken from the right hand of God to Earth to live as a peasant carpenter nor the agony in the garden, nor the mockings, nor the beatings, and not the excruciating pain of the cross. His physical death was enough.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Travis1980:
His physical death was enough.

Only if mere physical death were the wages of sin.

 

[Gina B]

No, I don't believe Jesus would have had to go into hell to satisfy our sin debt. SACRIFICE. A perfect, everlasting blood sacrifice was to be given, and He was it. Did the animals whose blood couldn't cover it permanently have to suffer in hell? LOL. What a ridiculous argument!
As far as the argument that he was with the spirits in prison, the interpretation that makes sense and that I've stuck with is this...he went to paradise, where all the saved were imprisoned awaiting his sacrifice so that they could be perfected and enter into heaven. He went to set them free and lead them to heaven. What reason would he have had to go into hell? What in the world is that about him not suffering enough? How crazy is that? Notice that the drops of blood were when he took on our sins, our guilt. I'd say that he did the majority of his spiritual suffering right there, and the physical on the cross. I can't even begin to imagine what it would be like to take on the sins of a whole world, and neither can you, and to be honest it disgusts me to hear someone say that "mere torture and death" wouldn't be enough.
Gina

 

[Helen]

A couple of notes here:

"It is finished" in the words Christ used was a term used to conclude a financial arrangement when the debt was paid in full.

Christ was announcing on the cross that the debt was paid in full.

Also "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" may have been something different than what is commonly assumed. This is the opening line of Psalm 22, which is rather graphic in foretelling some of the crucifixion scene. The end of Psalm 22 is the announcement of victory.

Christ was always thinking of others -- on the cross itself, the thief and his mother. And, I suspect, probably the disciples as well with the cry of the first line of that Psalm. Just perhaps He was saying, "Remember that Psalm? Remember I told you this would happen? That Psalm. Read it. This was foretold. Now look at the ending. Have faith; this is not the end!"

Aaron, at the moment Christ BECAME sin for us, He was separated from the Father.

That was hell enough for Him. Punishment enough. Pain enough.

The hell the condemned from earth go through, as fierce as it is, is probably pale in comparison to that moment in time when the Trinity was separated from itself for our sakes. For no sin can be in the presence of the Father...

Thus, when Jesus said, "It is finished!" -- He meant it. All that was left at that point was for His blood to be spilled on the ground, and the soldiers made sure of that.

 

[rkbo]

I would offer this for consideration:
Isa 53:4-5
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
(KJV)

Borne our griefs, sorrows.
Smitten and afflicted of God.
Wounded for us.
Chastised of our peace.

These things are more than the sum on their parts. These things where done befor the grave and end when he said "it is finished"(the debt has been paid)

[ November 12, 2002, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: rkbo ]

 

[Frogman]

let's not forget the darkness over the earth, I forget the times, but I believe from midday until the evening sacrifice. This certainly could have been the 'treading of the winepress of the wrath of God' accomplished by Christ, that forsakening He felt, must certainly have been equivalent to suffering spiritually to One who had never experienced a seperation from God His Father. Also remember the suffering undergone in prayer in the Garden in anticipation to this suffering.

I do not think it was necessary for Christ to descend into hell, as such, while the grave, we can be sure of, I believe he suffered all while here, prior to physical death, he, having no sin, could not ever have hoped to suffer the second death as those who are lost are facing it.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Aaron]

oops

[ November 12, 2002, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]