Destiny of the un-evangelized

[BrotherJoseph]

Your accusations of me being man centered is amusing since I am a Calvinist and believe Salvation is all of God. But God has ordained the means in which the Gospel is given to the Elect as has already been shown in Romans 10.

BlessedWife and Brother Tony,

Romans 10:13-15 is what Brother Tony showed me in his post that you refer to. Here it is, "13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

Now notice it says "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" and I believe this. I could also make a true statement that says "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord and have good works to show their faith is real shall be saved" and this would be true also, wouldn't it? The point is verse 13 in no way implies the calling "upon the name of the Lord" is causative to make the person saved. I would also point out, if it were causative to make a person saved, it would make salvation a work because calling upon someone is a work that someone performs (it is an action verb).

Also, I also never contended that a preacher of the gospel does not bring glad tidings, etc, thus I do not see how that passage in Romans 10:15 negates any of my points. The elect's faith in the gospel is how one comes to find out they are saved solely through the blood of Christ (not by their works or faith), thus in their mind they experience peace with God through this realization and thus are said to be justified by faith. (Romans 5:1) We are born again sovereignly through the Holy Ghost quickening us, and we are legally saved solely through the atonement.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[JohnDeereFan]

In an effort to save the Cal/Arm forum from the constant solitary posting and reply of one person, here’s a question:

What happens to the unevangelized (those who never hear the gospel)? And what are the implications concerning this and the doctrine of election?

Same as anybody else: Hell, if they don't repent and receive Christ.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Prove anyone has died without hearing the gospel.

How do brain damaged people hear it?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Romans makes it clear that no one has an excuse. All are guilty and all know the truth about God, the ungodly suppress that knowledge. The only conclusion is that those who never here the Gospel will go to hell, all the more reason for us to spread the Gospel to every one.

Again, how do the brain damaged hear the gospel? I hope your not implying that a preacher must be present.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Same as anybody else: Hell, if they don't repent and receive Christ.

And how would a brain damaged person repent & receive? Or do you cure them first? sorry that last part was snippy....I just would like to know since everyone here (besides Brother Joe) thinks that a preacher must deliver the message. If it is "The Word" ....well isn't Christ the Living Word & He could make rocks to praise & worship Him.

I tell you this, perhaps ad nauseum, at this point because it weighs heavily on me, having both a dead infant child & a sister with Cerebral Palsy

 

[salzer mtn]

Perhaps people are getting regeneration and conversion mixed up, I believe there is a difference. Regeneration is passive and conversion is active. I believe the infants and the brain damaged can receive regeneration because they are passive in this but they don't have the ability to be active in conversion.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Perhaps people are getting regeneration and conversion mixed up, I believe there is a difference. Regeneration is passive and conversion is active. I believe the infants and the brain damaged can receive regeneration because they are passive in this but they don't have the ability to be active in conversion.

Well the question is about the status of the "UNEVANGELIZED" .... and if so then you must consider that there are people out there who cant be evangelized to. And not for anything but its not possible. So to someone who lives in a remote backwater area. Where is the preacher teacher....none exist. And you can argue that till the cows come home but there it is....no exposure to the gospel. So are they all relegated to HELL....I think not! This is not the God I serve.

 

[wpe3bql]

I believe that the main thrust of Romans 1:16 - [at least] 6:23 pretty much covers what happens to the "UN-EVANGELIZED" with an average intellectual (mental) capacity.

Please note that I personally do not believe it is advantageous for me to spend much of my time to, shall we say, "split hairs" [I don't have many follicles left as it is!] over subjects such as this.

If I'm 1,000+% in error about the above, then I suppose my plea will be, "Guilty as charged, Your Honor!"

 

[Rebel]

Well the question is about the status of the "UNEVANGELIZED" .... and if so then you must consider that there are people out there who cant be evangelized to. And not for anything but its not possible. So to someone who lives in a remote backwater area. Where is the preacher teacher....none exist. And you can argue that till the cows come home but there it is....no exposure to the gospel. So are they all relegated to HELL....I think not! This is not the God I serve.

I agree with you.

 

[SovereignGrace]

There seems to be some mitigating of the gospel going on here.


There is no salvation outside the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Ro. 1:16, 10:9-17
1Cor. 1:21, 15:10,11
Eph. 1:16
Acts 4:12

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

There seems to be some mitigating of the gospel going on here.


There is no salvation outside the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Ro. 1:16, 10:9-17
1Cor. 1:21, 15:10,11
Eph. 1:16
Acts 4:12

And what of those who cannot hear it! Do you relegate them to hell?

 

[SovereignGrace]

And what of those who cannot hear it! Do you relegate them to hell?

That's not my job to designate anyone to hell, or heaven for that matter.


The church's responsibility is to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ. Those that 'hear and live' are the sheep. Those that hear and do not respond are the goats. But none of us knows the sheep from the goats. Those that die without ever knowing Jesus existed die lost. It is just that plain and simple.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That's not my job to designate anyone to hell, or heaven for that matter.


The church's responsibility is to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ. Those that 'hear and live' are the sheep. Those that hear and do not respond are the goats. But none of us knows the sheep from the goats. Those that die without ever knowing Jesus existed die lost. It is just that plain and simple.

Then simply answer the question, how do the brain damaged hear the gospel?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Then simply answer the question, how do the brain damaged hear the gospel?

You appear to be appealing to your emotions more than you are the scriptures. There isn't one living being that ever lived that deserved heaven. Nothing but God's grace bestowed to a sinner grants them permission to live eternally with Him, this includes babies and those who never had the mental aptitude to understand the gospel. I am not trying to be harsh with you, only to steer you into the safety of what the scriptures state as truth.


If you study in Mark 16 Jesus stated, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.' Then He said this in Matthew 28, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

It takes the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ to save sinners.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Then simply answer the question, how do the brain damaged hear the gospel?

Here is another thing. You are asking a question that, in my opinion, no one has an answer for. We see babies as innocent, as well as those who will never have the mental capacity to truly grasp anything. But the Psalmist wrote Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Psa. 51:5 And Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies. Psa 58:3,4 However, God is able to speak to the soul of these in ways we can't. That's why it is not my job to relegate anyone to hell.


But it is the spirit in a person,
the breath of the Almighty, that gives them understanding. Job 32:8

 

[JohnDeereFan]

And how would a brain damaged person repent & receive?

I don't know. I'm not a doctor. But I do know that salvation is of the Lord and if it's His will for them to be saved, they'll repent and receive.

I trust them to Him.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Perhaps people are getting regeneration and conversion mixed up, I believe there is a difference. Regeneration is passive and conversion is active. I believe the infants and the brain damaged can receive regeneration because they are passive in this but they don't have the ability to be active in conversion.

Brother Salzer,

I agree with you that conversion and regeneration are two different things, however I disagree with you in that I believe all the elect the will be converted (some with and some without the gospel preacher). Jesus said, "...God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." (Matthew 3:9) and "if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out." (Luke 19:40) and "25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them,With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:25-26), thus would He have a problem of converting such as the mentally handicap, infants dying in infancy, aborted babies, etc?

If He can make a donkey speak, yes he can convert the mentally handicap, infants dying in infancy, and the aborted believe upon Him. After all, scripture tells us "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing" (John 6:63A). Jesus tells us , "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live" (John 5:25). This is speaking of the spiritually dead in sin, not those who will rise at the last resurrection because Jesus says the "now is". A preacher can speak the words of God, but not utilize His voice, only Jesus can do that. Thus, the elect are "taught of God". "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me (John 10:27), thus there will be no elect in Heaven who never knew who Jesus was or believed upon him while on this earth. This is the true gospel and the only one that offers hope to those who seemingly are helpless by outward appearances.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I don't know. I'm not a doctor. But I do know that salvation is of the Lord and if it's His will for them to be saved, they'll repent and receive.

I trust them to Him.

But you are a pastor correct.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Brother Salzer,

I agree with you that conversion and regeneration are two different things, I however I disagree with you in that I believe all the will be converted (some with and some without the gospel preacher). Jesus said, "...God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." (Matthew 3:9) and "if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out." (Luke 19:40) and "25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them,With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:25-26), thus would He have a problem of converting such as the mentally handicap, infants dying in infancy, aborted babies, etc?

If He can make a donkey speak, yes he can convert the mentally handicap, infants dying in infancy, and the aborted believe upon Him. After all, scripture tells us "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing" (John 6:63A). Jesus tells us , "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live" (John 5:25). This is speaking of the spiritually dead in sin, not those who will rise at the last resurrection because Jesus says the "now is". A preacher can speak the words of God, but not utilize His voice, only Jesus can do that. Thus, the elect are "taught of God". "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me (John 10:27), thus there will be no elect in Heaven who never knew who Jesus was or believed upon him while on this earth. This is the true gospel and the only one that offers hope to those who seemingly are helpless by outward appearances.

God bless,

Brother Joe

In other words, He does it and he doesn't need man. Ring a ding ding!:jesus:

 

[BrotherJoseph]

There seems to be some mitigating of the gospel going on here.


There is no salvation outside the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Ro. 1:16, 10:9-17
1Cor. 1:21, 15:10,11
Eph. 1:16
Acts 4:12

Brother Sovereign,


I believe all the elect will be converted to the gospel as scripture makes it quite clear that being elect also means one will believe in Jesus, but that does not mean all of the elect will be converted by a man gospel preacher. There is no Bible verse that says that, is there?

For example the man gospel preacher is absent here, "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people," (Revelation 14:6)

Also, Jesus revealed himself to Paul directly.

Also, in Revelation we read in heaven they will sing, "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Revelation 5:9). Are you going to contend throughout all of post resurrection history the gospel has been preached to every people and tongue? Some of them would have died off. What about the American Indians for over a thousand years prior to Columbus's arrival not hearing the gospel and the African tribes prior to missionaries? Do you contend none of there people died off before that time or that they all heard the gospel preacher? I find neither of those propositions believable or historical, but if you do, give us a citation to prove your assertion

Also, what is your answer to all infants dying in infancy (such as Earth, Wind, and Fire's child) the mentally handicap, and aborted infants, do you believe they all go to Hell? I don't because I know God can convert even these to belief in the gospel without the means of the human preacher. Remember, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing" (John 6:63A)

"And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?" (Matthew 21:16) and "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes (Matthew 11:25)

The father directly reveals who Jesus is to a person, flesh and blood does not reveal this, "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 16:17)

God bless,

Brother Joe