Destiny of the un-evangelized

[BrotherJoseph]

That's not my job to designate anyone to hell, or heaven for that matter.


The church's responsibility is to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ. Those that 'hear and live' are the sheep. Those that hear and do not respond are the goats. But none of us knows the sheep from the goats. Those that die without ever knowing Jesus existed die lost. It is just that plain and simple.

Brother Sovereign,

You bring up some good points, much of what you said I can agree with. For example, it is not our job to judge if one is saved. Also, only the sheep and not the goats hear and believe the gospel. I would even concur with you that those that die without ever knowing Jesus are lost. However, you put God in a box, if (and Im not sure if this is what you believe) you believe the only way one can be converted to know and believe in Jesus is through the means of the gospel preacher. Jesus said repeatedly , "To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out." (John 10:3). Who is the he in this verse that calls them out, the gospel preacher or Jesus? Can the gospel preacher utilize the voice of Jesus or can Jesus alone use his voice to call dead sinners?

Again, "And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." (John 10:4). Again, a preacher can speak the words of Jesus, but only Jesus can utilize His voice to have the sheep "follow him". Are these sheep following not converted? Of course they are.

And , "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd" (John 10:16). Again it is Jesus voice that brings the sheep into the fold, not the gospel preacher.

Yes again, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" (John 10:27). They here Jesus's voice and are converted, thus they follow.

And finally, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." (John 5:25). This verse cannot be referring to the end time resurrection of the saints as it says the hour "now is". Therefore, it can only be referring to those dead in sins hearing Christ (not the preachers voice) and thus being quickened to live.

Brother Joe

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Here you go Bro. Joe......statement from Sovereign Grace, " It takes the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ to save sinners."
:smilewinkgrin:

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Here you go Bro. Joe......statement from Sovereign Grace, " It takes the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ to save sinners."
:smilewinkgrin:

Brother Earth,

I don't doubt that there will be nobody in Heaven who never knew Jesus or his work while alive. I just differ on Sovereign in that he seems to believe Jesus doesn't directly reveal Himself to sinners sovereignly through His voice. I also would differ from him if he believes faith in the gospel is the cause of one becoming born again rather than the evidence of it. I think you and I are on the same page :thumbs:

As one who has absoluter Primitive beliefs and attends an absoluter church (I have not yet been baptized into the church, but am still currently a member of the condtionalists Primitive, but I no longer attend there), I differ with the conditional Primitive Brothers as some of them believe elect children can reject and not believe the gospel their entire life, but still be born again (e.g. Hindu, Muslim, etc). This is a direct result of their belief in the false doctrine of "conditional time salvation" that also has no historical support, but "hatched its egg" after the Civil war in response to the doctrine of the absolute predestination of all things. No writings of it exist prior to this period. Also, there is not one person mentioned in the New Testament who was born again, but didn't know and believe who Jesus was or did or failed to believe in the gospel. Scripture is quite clear all who are born again do believe. There will be no such thing as unconverted born again Christians who go to heaven.

I have a book by a non-Primive historian on Primitive Baptist history called, Primitive Baptist of The Wiregrass South. Interestingly, regarding conditional time salvations developments he writes (page 135), "A new doctrinal development during the 1890s. The London Confession declared that, "God hath decreed in Himself from all eternity...all things whatsoever comes to pass...John Gill declared the "decrees and purposes of God" to "reach to all things that come to pass in the world". Tired Creek's Church's articles expressed belief in absolute predestination...Some Primitive preachers became apprehensive concerning the moral inertia this doctrine seemed to breed in their people...Without abandoning belief in the unconditional predestination of the elect to eternal salvation, some preachers began to assert a "conditional time salvation" gained by obedience to God's commandments." Well I have gone on a long tirade now, thus I better shut up! I guess that is a topic for a different thread someday.

Brother Joe

 

[robustheologian]

What's wrong with you? All evangelicals know that.

???? Something is wrong with me because I asked a question to spark a debate???

 

[robustheologian]

I think the best way to handle the question of the evangelized would be to think of what the state of all of humanity would have been if Jesus never came.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

???? Something is wrong with me because I asked a question to spark a debate???

He was joking! Guess you don't know Larry....you will though ....time....give it time.

 

[salzer mtn]

Perhaps people are getting regeneration and conversion mixed up, I believe there is a difference. Regeneration is passive and conversion is active. I believe the infants and the brain damaged can receive regeneration because they are passive in this but they don't have the ability to be active in conversion.

I guess I was mis-understood in the above post. I do not believe babies that die in infancy and brain damaged children go to hell.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Joe....I'm on the same page with you on everything but Absolute Predestination. And you are right, that is a seperate conversation for a different day.

It is so good though to converse with another Old School Baptist....there are very few of us and frankly both Modern Baptists and Calvinists annoy me. Calvinists though are becoming fewer and fewer on BB, which I'm fairly sure causes most here to breathe a sigh of relief.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Joe....I'm on the same page with you on everything but Absolute Predestination. And you are right, that is a seperate conversation for a different day.

It is so good though to converse with another Old School Baptist....there are very few of us and frankly both Modern Baptists and Calvinists annoy me. Calvinists though are becoming fewer and fewer on BB, which I'm fairly sure causes most here to breathe a sigh of relief.

Brother Steve,

Yes it is good to talk with another old school Baptist on the board! I disagree with the Calvinists on justification and also some Calvinists hold to gospel regeneration (but that is probably the minority). I think they are in the same camp as me as far as absolute predestination (though they may refer to it as the providence of God). Also, I am willing to bet even most of the Calvinists haven't even heard of the doctrine of eternal vital union. I find a lot less in common with the Arminians and also the free will and gospel regeneration Baptists on the board. However I consider all of these groups to be my brothers in Christ as they have evidence of faith in Christ as Lord and that he died and rose again to save people from their sins.

 

[salzer mtn]

With draw question

 

[kyredneck]

But this multitude that knoweth not the gospel are accursed. Jn 7:49

What's wrong with you? All evangelicals know that.

???? Something is wrong with me because I asked a question to spark a debate???

He was joking! Guess you don't know Larry....you will though ....time....give it time.

Lol, I'm guessing he didn't meditate on the scripture I quoted either....

 

[kyredneck]

...If you study in Mark 16 Jesus stated, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.....

So Christ is saying 'Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved from eternal damnation in hell'?

If that's what you believe, build your case to justify the add-on to the context.

While you're at it, explain how baptismal regeneration works.

 

[kyredneck]

So this...

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

is just pointless rambling by Paul? After all, this is, according to you, a "man-made means system to eternal life being dependent on the recipient being able to hear, understand, and believe the gospel preacher."

So you believe Christ is saying 'whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved from eternal damnation in hell?

You believe (v. 1) Paul's 'heart`s desire and supplication to God is for Israel, that they may be saved from eternal damnation in hell'?

If that's what you believe, build a case to justify the add-on to the context.

While you're at it, share your thoughts on these passages you left off:

16 But they did not all hearken to the glad tidings. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world.

When did Israel hear? Remember, we're speaking of an international people here, not just those in Palestine. When did the gospel go out unto the ends of the earth? And that already by the time Paul had written these words.

 

[kyredneck]

Anybody, build your case, biblically, to show that 'saved' always means 'bound for heaven', and 'lost' always means 'bound for hell'. Define, from the Bible, 'saved' and 'lost'.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Here you go Bro. Joe......statement from Sovereign Grace, " It takes the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ to save sinners."
:smilewinkgrin:

And why do you take offense to my saying such?

 

[SovereignGrace]

So Christ is saying 'Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved from eternal damnation in hell'?

If that's what you believe, build your case to justify the add-on to the context.

While you're at it, explain how baptismal regeneration works.

Baptismal regeneration? I never stated that as baptismal regeneration, I just posted what Jesus said. In Acts 2 Peter states it in a similiar fashion; Acts 2:38 in fact. However, I don't hold to baptismal regeneration.

You are advocating 'time salvation' and I oppose that ideology.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Anybody, build your case, biblically, to show that 'saved' always means 'bound for heaven', and 'lost' always means 'bound for hell'. Define, from the Bible, 'saved' and 'lost'.

Now brother, you are really asking for too too much:love2::laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And why do you take offense to my saying such?

It appears you are advocating that the physical preaching of someone is a necessary link to salvation. Is that your claim?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Baptismal regeneration? I never stated that as baptismal regeneration, I just posted what Jesus said. In Acts 2 Peter states it in a similiar fashion; Acts 2:38 in fact. However, I don't hold to baptismal regeneration.

You are advocating 'time salvation' and I oppose that ideology.

You have not answered the man's question....from the bible now (not history) tell us why you oppose. I'm waiting.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

So Christ is saying 'Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved from eternal damnation in hell'?

If that's what you believe, build your case to justify the add-on to the context.

While you're at it, explain how baptismal regeneration works.

Brother Kyredneck

Mark 16:16 states, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.". One does not have to read into this verse "time salvation" in order to avoid the conclusion that this verse refers to baptismal regeneration. Baptism and belief in Jesus are evidences of the Holy Spirit in a person (though all the elect will have the evidence of belief, not all will have the evidence of baptism like the thief on the cross who was never baptized). That one can be born again, but never believe in Jesus, is one of the unscriptural heretical conclusions that many who hold to "time salvation" come to. If you wish me to prove this is a heretical conclusion from scripture challenge me on it an I will do so. (To be fair I know of some conditionalist Primitives who believe in Time Salvation, but do believe all the elect will believe upon Jesus).

Now back to the verse in Mark, scripture makes it clear in James that a true faith in Jesus will also inevitably produce good works and Jesus said you will know them by their fruits, thus I could make a true statement that says, "He that has faith in Jesus and good works to show for it shall be saved". This statement would not necessarily make the faith in Jesus and good works causative to make the person saved, but it would still be a true statement, in like manner, the faith and being baptized in Mark are not speaking causatively, but are stating these are mere signs of a born again child of God who "shall be saved".

God bless,

Brother Joe