Featured Destiny of the un-evangelized

We are discussing the born again here reading scripture, not people in general.

Again, we are not talking about ALL people reading the scripture. But ALL who are in Christ have the same Holy Spirit teaching them application as they read.

 

Brother Steaver,

Those who believe in the 5 points and those who don't come to very different conclusions from reading the same Bible. I don't believe people from either group who truly believe Jesus is the Christ, rose again, and died for their sins are lost, do you? If not, why do you think they come to different conclusions even though they have the same Holy Spirit? One group is having the flesh get in the way. Which group has "the flesh" performing that which is pleasing to God (i.e. believing the gospel) while not yet having the Holy Spirit? Did not Paul say "So then they that are in the flesh cannot (total inability) please God." (Romans 8:8), but if one can repent and believe the gospel without the spirit, while yet only in the flesh, how then can Romans 8:8 be true? We can both agree that both groups cannot be right. Do you believe these issues on how one becomes born again and the purpose of the gospel are not big enough to divide over?

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Although not addressed to me, let me respond to the highlighted part of your post: This is an unfair characterization.

Further, let me suggest this: Instead of saying that both groups cannot be right, could it not be that both groups are partially right? Or do you believe it is possible to be 100% correct 100% of the time? I do not, and I think Paul agrees, seeing that he said we all see through a glass darkly.

Considering all that, let me ask you then: Do you think this is something to divide over? If so, how many divisions are acceptable? Are they acceptable to the point that one reaches a place where he can have fellowship only with himself?

I have strong views on these issues, but I don't believe I would exclude those who disagree with me from fellowship, either within a church or outside it.

 

Thank you for your answer. I won't comment further except to say that I cannot relate to the way you see justification and salvation. I hold to early church views, not those which came 1000 - 1500 years later. The early churches knew nothing of this legal, courtroom view.

 

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Why am I not surprised :laugh:

 

Hi Brother Rebel,

No, I do not feel those who hold to the five points are in error. No it is not possible in the flesh to be right 100% of the time, but in regards to salvation through the Holy Spirit scripture makes it clear one can come to a understanding of the gospel,"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things" (1 John 2:27) and "13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth...:" (John 16:13a)

I do not believe one who doesn't believe in the 5 points of doctrines of grace should join a church that has that in their confession of faith , otherwise how is the church to maintain the "the unity of the faith" (Ephesians 4:13)? As far as divisions go, I believe God has preserved throughout all ages His true church, " Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages" (Ephesians 3:21), thus the Baptist church did not go through Rome, but has existed since the time of the apostles. The true church doesn't divide, but has those who do divide and leave it when they end up adhering to heresies.

I would be friends with someone who disagrees with the doctrines of grace, but would not have church fellowship with such who are not of the same faith and order.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Those in the flesh ( having not the Spirit of Christ) cannot please God. The only way they can please God is to surrender oneself to Jesus Christ and receive Him as LORD.

"If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water."

"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink".

If one has the living water already, they have no thirst and no need to ask again for it.

 

Brother Rebel,

How do you then reconcile the scriptures that talk of one being # 1 "justified by faith" #2 justified by works, and #3 justified by blood? Do you believe these are all the same thing?

The example of Abraham being saved prior to being "justified by faith" proves that one is born again prior to being justified by faith. They are not simultaneous occurrences as Abraham's example makes clear. Was not Abraham Paul's primary example of one being "justified by faith" in Romans when he, " believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Romans 4:3)

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

So only those holding to your own beliefs concerning the gospel are God's "true church"?

Only those holding to the same statements of faith as your church does are God's true church?

These John tells us about are not saved. John is not talking about Christians with different views.

 

Brother Steaver,

I agree with the first sentence of yours, but you contradicted yourself by making an exception to the rule you laid out in the first sentence in your second sentence above. Scripture does not make an exception, but merely says, "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:8), therefore those believing the gospel must first have the Spirit to believe.

Brother Joe

 

There was no such thing as "born again" prior to the glorification of Jesus Christ (John 7). Calvinist are obligated to believe there was, even without any scripture support of it at all, in order to propagate the doctrine of rebirth precedes belief.

 

Brother Steaver,

They are not my beliefs, but the Bible's.

Yes, I agree with you here regarding those that John says "went out from us" were not saved, I shouldn't have used that example. I wasn't thinking about those he speaks of were actually unsaved when I posted it.

Brother Joe

 

The "therefore" you are concluding is totally of your own making. All of Calvinism's errors spin off of this one fallacy, which is the Holy Spirit rebirth precedes faith and that it also is nothing "new", even though God said He was going to do a new thing and have a new covenant. The Calvinist says "no, nothing new going on". So if one reads the Scripture having this fallacy embedded upon the mind, all of these Scriptures will be misinterpreted and misapplied.

 

Brother Steaver,

If there was no being "born again" prior to Jesus's glorification why did Jesus tell Nicodemus prior to His glorification "... Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3)?

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Here I am in agreement with you....conversely, I personally will not join a church that doesn't agree with it. I have learned the best thing to do is tell the prospective pastor up front that I believe in DoG. You'd be surprised how many inquiry calls never get followed up after you disclose it. Being Amil is the other issue. Honestly, no big deal for me. :thumbs:

 

I agree. Amil is not a big deal to me either.

 

Nothing in that rant answered my simple point.

If you want to relate John 3:8 then you need to do so WITHOUT assuming your premise or your conclusion.

Shortly after writing what you quoted, Paul stated very clearly that there are NONE that do good. ALL have gone out of the way.

I am at somewhat of a disadvantage since I do not know what you believe outside of the few posts you've made in this thread. I assume by your somewhat indignant response that you believe in some form of "progressive" or works based regeneration? Talk about having to explain away scripture... you have to if you believe that.

 

Did you misunderstand or are you intentionally being obtuse?

 

….the doers of the law shall be justified Ro 2:13

…by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified… Ro 3:20


...when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law... Ro 2:14

...There is none that doeth good, no, not, so much as one: Ro 3:12

Yea, what's up with that, was Paul getting senile?