Featured Destiny of the un-evangelized

Fine....But you did not answer my question. Good evening.

 

Brother Kyredneck,

I do not contend for either notion, nor have I posted such, and I agree both notions are wrong. You have misrepresented me above, but I am sure that was not your intent. We our probably taking past one another.

I do not contend that His children cannot commit the sin of unbelief. Scripture tells us they indeed can fall in to times of unbelief, "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself' (2 Timothy 2:13), and "Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen." (Mark 16:14).

What I am contending is that all his elect children will at sometime during their life believe upon Jesus, though they may have periods of unbelief in their lives like the disciples even did, but they will know who He is while they live upon earth and place their faith in His death for their sins. Also, let me make it clear, I by no means contend all of His elect will hear the gospel preacher.

Scripture also makes it clear that Christ atoned for all the sins of His people as we read regarding our inner man, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" (1 John 3:9). Our inner man therefore cannot sin, but our flesh however of course remains until we die and unlike the inner man can and does sin, but Jesus paid for all of His elects sin, including unbelief that they may have for a season. "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. " (1 Peter 2:24)

Am I wrong in believing you are contending that # 1 an elect child of God may never know who Jesus is their entire life and never believe upon Him and that # 2 Some of God's blessings in this temporal world are earned or forfeited based upon a child of God's will and effort and that some things a child of God does in disobedience ultimately end in temporal consequences that are not for His own good? Please correct me if I am misunderstanding any your beliefs brother.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

No they don't trump God. I never stated thusly.


However, God uses preachers to fulfill His will in saving His chosen people. No one will go to heaven without knowing Jesus Christ as their Redeemer.

You appear to promote God fills in where man can't get to them. That's a foreign concept to the bible, imo.

But I'll just wave the white flag and move along. Good day sir.

 

Brother Steaver, I agree with this statement of yours.

Brother Steaver, it depends upon what you mean by "divide". If members of a congregation come to believe heresy, it is then necessary for those not believing the heresy to separate themselves from those brothers into a different congregation to enable the believers in the church to, " come in the unity of the faith" (Ephesians 4:13). It would not be right for example, for me to join an Arminian church and try to infiltrate it with the 5 points, nor would it be appropriate for you too join a church that has in their articles of faith as the 5 points and try to change it by convincing others of your beliefs.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Brother Steve,

I too use to believe in the heresy of gospel regeneration before I joined the Primitive Baptist church, but the conditionalist Primitive brothers help me see the light and I am thankful for this. Man likes to believe they play a role in ushering in individuals into Heaven. I think you, Brother KY Redneck, and I can all agree on this.

Brother Joe

 

Yes Joe....there exists Pelegius and he still operates on the unspecting....too bad to, seems like he is sincere. But our God is completely sovereign.

 

I sure hope what I'm about to ask doesn't get something bad started (not by you), but what is the difference as you see it between Old School Baptists and Calvinists? I am sincerely asking this, not to try to stir up discord.

 

(See bold) How?

 

In my own words, the most prominent differences in doctrine between Primitive Baptists and Reformed are:

Most Reformed hold to gospel or means regeneration which occurs simultaneously upon hearing and belief of the gospel. PBs (and a few Reformed and Founders SB) hold to direct or immediate regeneration which can occur decades before hearing and belief of the gospel.

Reformed hold that all the elect will at some point in their lives make a formal profession of faith, mainstream PBs say that's not necessarily so.

Reformed tend toward absolutism, mainstream PBs toward overruling providence.

 

Ah, perhaps we have been talking past each other. Probably we are much more in agreement than not.

 

Thank you. I would agree with PBs on what I bolded.

 

Believe in Jesus. Joe, what does that mean to you?

19 Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder. Ja 2

It has to mean more than just a mere mental assent. To me it's total trust and reliance on Christ and submission to His will, and I say that with the conviction that most of us spend the most of our time 'in the flesh'. Thank God for the imputed righteousness of Christ!

 

God swore in His wrath 'they (His redeemed) shall not enter into my rest', and He 'destroyed' them in the wilderness. Yet, even after all the wickedness Israel had done in the wilderness after leaving Egypt (unbelief, disobedience, murmuring, idolatry, fornication, rebellion, etc.), and even with Balaam wanting so badly to curse Israel, God made Balaam to declare:

He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21
(Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not reckon sin. Ro 4:8)

Any wrath towards His children is in this temporal realm. There are no eternal consequences for His redeemed.

You see that word 'life' and you narrowly think only in the eternal sense? What about the QUALITY of eternal life, the abundant life, during our stay in this temporal realm?

10 The thief cometh not, but that he may steal, and kill, and destroy: I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly. Jn 10

12 Fight the good fight of the faith, lay hold on the life eternal, whereunto thou wast called, and didst confess the good confession in the sight of many witnesses.
19 laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on the life which is life indeed. 1 Tim 6

 

Thanks for the info and quotes! :thumbsup: Now was this considered "new" theology/doctrine of the day? Or did all agree with him at the time?

 

And look at what we have today. Thousands of denominations and sects all pointing and declaring each other heretics. Each one believes they have it just right....pat pat pat on da back! :tongue3:

Take away all the theological mumbo jumbo and just read the scriptures with each other and there would be no divisions. We would ALL agree with what was being read!!!!!! "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved" .....I bet we both say AMEN! :thumbs:

 

Hi Brother Rebel,

Primitive Baptists differ from reformed theology on justification in that we maintain legal justification is based solely on the blood of Christ, not faith. We understand justification by faith in a different way than reformed theology.

Justification by Blood (Rom 5:9). This is legal justification in the sight of God. This happened ONCE in the history of all the Earth, when Christ made Himself an offering on the Cross. When Christ was made an offering for sins, God the Father was pleased with the Son's sacrifice and we were legally justified (declared just). This verdict occurs in God's courtroom! "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:9)

Justification by Faith (Rom 4). This is experiential. In short, when a born again person trusts solely in Christ's power to raise the dead, that faith is "counted unto him" for righteousness. The reality of being redeemed (justified by blood) is understood by the believer. That person, upon believing, experiences peace with God (5:1).

Paul's two examples of justification by faith are Abraham and David.

Abraham - According to Paul in Romans 4, Abraham was justified by faith in Genesis 15:6 when he believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Notice though, that Abraham left Ur in Genesis 12:1. According to Hebrews 11, Abraham left Ur by faith. According to Galatians 5:22, faith is a fruit of the Spirit. According to Hebrews 12:2, Christ authors Faith in a person. In short, no one has faith without first being born again (1 John 5:1). Faith is a product of the New Birth, when God writes His laws upon our hearts, and teaches us to “know Him” (Heb 8).

According to Reformed Theology however, justification by faith comes at the identical time as the new birth. Yet, we find Abraham walking by faith 15 years prior to the event in which he was “justified by faith,” all the way back in Genesis 12:1. Hmm...how can one walk by faith for over a decade prior to being justified by faith, if justification by faith and the new birth are synonyms? Simple, that idea is erroneous.

Abraham walked by faith, worship God, etc., prior to believing in Christ's power to raise his dead body in a reproductive sense. He was already born again. But, when he believed God's promise, his redeemed state with God was felt and he was justified on the level of his conscience. The legal fact was now a felt reality.

So what is Justification by faith? It is when a Child of God by God's power believes in Christ's atonement , he is now aware on the level of his conscience to be just, and experiences peace with God. This is experiential.

Justification by works (James 2). This occurs in the “courtroom of others' opinions.” By good works, we show ourselves to be righteous to other people. To quote James 2, we “show our faith by our works.”


To sum up, 3 justifications-

•By blood: God's courtroom.


•By faith: The courtroom of a believer's conscience.


•By works: The courtroom of onlookers' opinions.


God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Hi Brother Kyredneck,

The demons may believe, but Christ did not die for demons. Also notice that verse in James only refers to those who merely believe there is one God, it does not say "thou believest Jesus is the Christ". I believe "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..." (1 John 5:1) and "...no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost" (1 Corinthians 12:3). I would say this trust (belief) is simplified in what Paul declares is the gospel and is a simple declaration, "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

I would agree with you that we probably spend more time in the flesh than the Spirit. The longer I live on this earth the more I see how depraved my nature is and in need of grace. I see as Paul said, "for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I."

I do not relegate to Hell all the various denominations that end up getting tied up into a works gospel as this is the very thing the saints at the church of Galatia were guilty of believing in.


God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Brother Kyredneck,

I have enjoyed our discussion in this thread and hope there is no hard feelings that were produced. I believe we can agree and say amen to a lot of things such as legal justification solely by the blood, the Jesus is Lord, total depravity of the flesh, predestination of His elect, being born again by God's sovereign quickening and not be means of the gospel, the simplicity of the church service (no musical instruments, no Sunday school as the whole family worships together, no salaried Elders, etc), that the King James is the best version of the Bible, mode of baptism is by full body immersion and this is the method of how one becomes a church member.

I am going to just agree to disagree with you regarding if there will be in Heaven those who lived their whole life in rejection and nonbelief in the gospel and/or never knew who Jesus was or his work on the cross, etc. I do not believe this is what we find of those who have been born again in the New Testament, but you are free to hold to what you believe to be a Biblical belief as will I.

I will grant to you that there will be those in Heaven who never made a formal profession of faith (like you told Rebel) and I believe most if not all absoluter Primitives believe this as well. Such as the mentally handicap, those aborted at birth, those in tribes that the gospel preacher never made it to and have died off (scripture tells us He has redeemed people out of every people and nations Revelation 5:9), those infants dying in infancy. Jesus can reveal Himself to all such people independent of the gospel just as David said regarding God, "...thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts" (Psalm 22.9), but these are incapable of making a formal profession of faith.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Brother Steaver,

Did all or even most of the religious people of Jesus's day agree with the truth he preached? No they tried to kill Him. I don't take census polls to determine if a doctrine is true, if I did, I bet we would end up concluding mankind is saved by doing good works.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Brother Steaver,

We probably interpret even the verse you gave me of "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved" differently. I do not interpret the "believe" in this verse to be causative (i.e. the reason the person is saved), but merely an evidence that they are saved, but you on the other hand probably believe it means you need to believe to get saved (if you don't please let me know). Big difference!

As far as if we all just read the scriptures with each other there would be no divisions this is not true as God has not given grace to every man to see that the scriptures merely testify of Jesus and that he alone saves. This is why Jesus said to those most well versed in scripture in His day, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39).

God bless,

Brother Joe