Destiny of the un-evangelized

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This thread is proving to be rather unfruitful. Good day guys.

Fine....But you did not answer my question. Good evening.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

You are contending (if I am misunderstanding please let me know) that:

1. His children cannot commit the sin of unbelief.

2. Christ's atonement does not cover the sin of unbelief.

Both these notions are WRONG.

Brother Kyredneck,

I do not contend for either notion, nor have I posted such, and I agree both notions are wrong. You have misrepresented me above, but I am sure that was not your intent. We our probably taking past one another.

I do not contend that His children cannot commit the sin of unbelief. Scripture tells us they indeed can fall in to times of unbelief, "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself' (2 Timothy 2:13), and "Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen." (Mark 16:14).

What I am contending is that all his elect children will at sometime during their life believe upon Jesus, though they may have periods of unbelief in their lives like the disciples even did, but they will know who He is while they live upon earth and place their faith in His death for their sins. Also, let me make it clear, I by no means contend all of His elect will hear the gospel preacher.

Scripture also makes it clear that Christ atoned for all the sins of His people as we read regarding our inner man, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" (1 John 3:9). Our inner man therefore cannot sin, but our flesh however of course remains until we die and unlike the inner man can and does sin, but Jesus paid for all of His elects sin, including unbelief that they may have for a season. "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. " (1 Peter 2:24)

Am I wrong in believing you are contending that # 1 an elect child of God may never know who Jesus is their entire life and never believe upon Him and that # 2 Some of God's blessings in this temporal world are earned or forfeited based upon a child of God's will and effort and that some things a child of God does in disobedience ultimately end in temporal consequences that are not for His own good? Please correct me if I am misunderstanding any your beliefs brother.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[SovereignGrace]

No two legged preacher trumps God.....you promote stupidity.

No they don't trump God. I never stated thusly.


However, God uses preachers to fulfill His will in saving His chosen people. No one will go to heaven without knowing Jesus Christ as their Redeemer.

You appear to promote God fills in where man can't get to them. That's a foreign concept to the bible, imo.

But I'll just wave the white flag and move along. Good day sir.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

We shouldn't consider ourselves "adversaries". If Jesus is our LORD, having been born again, then we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. All we do here on these boards is strive to understand these deep issues as best we can seeing how we are imperfect human beings capable of many errors.

Brother Steaver, I agree with this statement of yours.

The goal is to be of one mind. While these theological debates are fun and healthy, they should never divide the flock. If one allows them to divide, then that in its self is sin to be repented of. Love you all!! Blessings!

Brother Steaver, it depends upon what you mean by "divide". If members of a congregation come to believe heresy, it is then necessary for those not believing the heresy to separate themselves from those brothers into a different congregation to enable the believers in the church to, " come in the unity of the faith" (Ephesians 4:13). It would not be right for example, for me to join an Arminian church and try to infiltrate it with the 5 points, nor would it be appropriate for you too join a church that has in their articles of faith as the 5 points and try to change it by convincing others of your beliefs.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

But they think it is.....the preacher speaks the Word and bang zoom I be saved. Again how you gonna speak to the child who dies 2 days after birth. I'd like for them to explain that one to me.

Brother Steve,

I too use to believe in the heresy of gospel regeneration before I joined the Primitive Baptist church, but the conditionalist Primitive brothers help me see the light and I am thankful for this. Man likes to believe they play a role in ushering in individuals into Heaven. I think you, Brother KY Redneck, and I can all agree on this.

Brother Joe

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes Joe....there exists Pelegius and he still operates on the unspecting....too bad to, seems like he is sincere. But our God is completely sovereign.

 

[Rebel]

Joe....I'm on the same page with you on everything but Absolute Predestination. And you are right, that is a seperate conversation for a different day.

It is so good though to converse with another Old School Baptist....there are very few of us and frankly both Modern Baptists and Calvinists annoy me. Calvinists though are becoming fewer and fewer on BB, which I'm fairly sure causes most here to breathe a sigh of relief.

I sure hope what I'm about to ask doesn't get something bad started (not by you), but what is the difference as you see it between Old School Baptists and Calvinists? I am sincerely asking this, not to try to stir up discord.

 

[Rebel]

Brother Steve,

Yes it is good to talk with another old school Baptist on the board! I disagree with the Calvinists on justification and also some Calvinists hold to gospel regeneration (but that is probably the minority). I think they are in the same camp as me as far as absolute predestination (though they may refer to it as the providence of God). Also, I am willing to bet even most of the Calvinists haven't even heard of the doctrine of eternal vital union. I find a lot less in common with the Arminians and also the free will and gospel regeneration Baptists on the board. However I consider all of these groups to be my brothers in Christ as they have evidence of faith in Christ as Lord and that he died and rose again to save people from their sins.

(See bold) How?

 

[kyredneck]

I sure hope what I'm about to ask doesn't get something bad started (not by you), but what is the difference as you see it between Old School Baptists and Calvinists? I am sincerely asking this, not to try to stir up discord.

In my own words, the most prominent differences in doctrine between Primitive Baptists and Reformed are:

Most Reformed hold to gospel or means regeneration which occurs simultaneously upon hearing and belief of the gospel. PBs (and a few Reformed and Founders SB) hold to direct or immediate regeneration which can occur decades before hearing and belief of the gospel.

Reformed hold that all the elect will at some point in their lives make a formal profession of faith, mainstream PBs say that's not necessarily so.

Reformed tend toward absolutism, mainstream PBs toward overruling providence.

 

[kyredneck]

....What I am contending is that all his elect children will at sometime during their life believe upon Jesus, though they may have periods of unbelief in their lives like the disciples even did, but they will know who He is while they live upon earth and place their faith in His death for their sins. Also, let me make it clear, I by no means contend all of His elect will hear the gospel preacher......

Ah, perhaps we have been talking past each other. Probably we are much more in agreement than not.

 

[Rebel]

In my own words, the most prominent differences in doctrine between Primitive Baptists and Reformed are:

Most Reformed hold to gospel or means regeneration which occurs simultaneously upon hearing and belief of the gospel. PBs (and a few Reformed and Founders SB) hold to direct or immediate regeneration which can occur decades before hearing and belief of the gospel.

Reformed hold that all the elect will at some point in their lives make a formal profession of faith, mainstream PBs say that's not necessarily so.

Reformed tend toward absolutism, mainstream PBs toward overruling providence.

Thank you. I would agree with PBs on what I bolded.

 

[kyredneck]

.... You are contending (if I am misunderstanding please let me know) that one can be born again, but never believe in Jesus.....

Believe in Jesus. Joe, what does that mean to you?

19 Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder. Ja 2

It has to mean more than just a mere mental assent. To me it's total trust and reliance on Christ and submission to His will, and I say that with the conviction that most of us spend the most of our time 'in the flesh'. Thank God for the imputed righteousness of Christ!

 

[kyredneck]

....I don't understand your reply here. Your reply above is in response to John 3:36 that says, "36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."...

God swore in His wrath 'they (His redeemed) shall not enter into my rest', and He 'destroyed' them in the wilderness. Yet, even after all the wickedness Israel had done in the wilderness after leaving Egypt (unbelief, disobedience, murmuring, idolatry, fornication, rebellion, etc.), and even with Balaam wanting so badly to curse Israel, God made Balaam to declare:

He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21
(Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not reckon sin. Ro 4:8)

Any wrath towards His children is in this temporal realm. There are no eternal consequences for His redeemed.

Are you arguing to contend that those who do not believe who thus "shall not see life...

You see that word 'life' and you narrowly think only in the eternal sense? What about the QUALITY of eternal life, the abundant life, during our stay in this temporal realm?

10 The thief cometh not, but that he may steal, and kill, and destroy: I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly. Jn 10

12 Fight the good fight of the faith, lay hold on the life eternal, whereunto thou wast called, and didst confess the good confession in the sight of many witnesses.
19 laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on the life which is life indeed. 1 Tim 6

 

[steaver]

Hi Brother Steaver,

The following outlines Augustine's writing on Predestination-
http://www.covenanter.org/Predestination/augustin_predestination.html

If you don't care to read that writing as it is very long, here are a ton of quotes from Augustine from the following site that proves he believed in the doctrines of grace
http://www.monergism.com/blog/augustine-free-grace


..The human will is so divinely helped in the pursuit of righteousness, that he [the believer] receives the Holy Spirit, by whom there is formed in his mind a delight in, and a love of, that supreme and unchangeable good, which is God. By this gift to him of the down payment, as it were, of the free gift, he [the believer] conceives a burning desire to cleave to his Maker. A mans free will, indeed, does not help at all except to sin, if he does not know the way of truth. And even after he begins to know his duty and proper aim, unless he also takes delight in and feels a love for it, he neither does his duty, nor sets about it, nor lives rightly. Now, in order that such a course may engage our affections, Gods love is shed abroad in our hearts, not through the free will which arises from ourselves, but through the Holy Spirit, who is given to us [Rom 5: 5].

~Augustine~

What is grace? That which is freely given. What is “freely given”? Given, not paid. If it was due, wages would be given, but grace would not be bestowed. But if it was really due, then you were good. But if, as is true, you were evil but believed on him who justifies the ungodly (What is, “who justifies the ungodly”? the ungodly is made righteous), consider what by right hung over you by the law and you have obtained by grace. But having obtained that grace by faith, you will be just by faith—”for the just lives by faith.”

~Augustine~

"In some places God requires newness of heart [Ezek 18:31]. But elsewherre he testifies that it is given by him [Ezek. 11:19; 36:26]. But what God promises we ourselves do not do through choice or nature; but he himself does through grace."-

~Augustine~

"Indeed, God requires faith itself of us; yet he does not find something to require unless he has given something to find."

~Augustine~

'Can we possibly, without utter absurdity, maintain that there first existed in anyone the good virtue of a good will, to entitle him to the removal of his heart of stone? How can we say this, when all the time this heart of stone itself signifies precisely a will of the hardest kind, a will that is absolutely inflexible against God? For if a good will comes first, there is obviously no longer a heart of stone.'

~Augustine~

"Since these things are so, everything that is commanded to human beings by the Lord in the holy Scriptures, for the sake of testing human free will, is either something we begin to obey by God's goodness, or is demanded in order to show us our need of grace to do it. Indeed, a person does not even begin to be changed from evil to good by the first stirrings of faith, unless the free and gratuitous mercy of God produces this in him…. So, therefore, we should think of God's grace as working from the beginning of a person's changing towards goodness, even to the end of its completion, so that he who glories may glory in the Lord. For just as no-one can bring goodness to perfection without the Lord, so no one can begin it without the Lord."

~Augustine~

For them [the Pelagians], grace means the knowledge with which the Lord God helps us, by which we can know what our duty is. The true meaning of grace, however, is the love that God breathes into us, which enables us with a holy delight to carry out the duty that we know.

~Augustine~

Can you say, ‘We will first walk in His righteousness, and will observe His judgments, and will act in a worthy way, so that He will give His grace to us’? But what good would you evil people do? And how would you do those good things, unless you were yourselves good? But Who causes people to be good? Only He Who said, ‘And I will visit them to make them good,’ and, ‘I will put my Spirit within you, and will cause you to walk in my righteousness, and to observe my judgments, and do them’ (Ezek.36:27). Are you asleep? Can’t you hear Him saying, ‘I will cause you to walk, I will make you to observe,’ lastly, ‘I will make you to do’? Really, are you still puffing yourselves up? We walk, true enough, and we observe, and we do; but it is God Who He makes us to walk, to observe, to do. This is the grace of God making us good; this is His mercy going before us.

~Augustine~

"To will is of nature, but to will aright is of grace."

~Augustine~

"God bids us do what we cannot, that we may know what we ought to seek from him."

~Augustine~

"Grace alone brings about every good work in us."

~Augustine~

"Nature is common to all, but not grace."

~Augustine~

"The grace of God does not find men fit for salvation, but makes them so."

~Augustine~

"The nature of the Divine goodness is not only to open to those who knock. but also to cause them to knock and ask."

~Augustine~

"Let God give what he commands, and command what he will."

~Augustine~

"Grace does not destroy the will but rather restores it."

~Augustine~

Thanks for the info and quotes! :thumbsup: Now was this considered "new" theology/doctrine of the day? Or did all agree with him at the time?

 

[steaver]

Brother Steaver, it depends upon what you mean by "divide". If members of a congregation come to believe heresy, it is then necessary for those not believing the heresy to separate themselves from those brothers into a different congregation to enable the believers in the church to, " come in the unity of the faith" (Ephesians 4:13). It would not be right for example, for me to join an Arminian church and try to infiltrate it with the 5 points, nor would it be appropriate for you too join a church that has in their articles of faith as the 5 points and try to change it by convincing others of your beliefs.

God bless,

Brother Joe

And look at what we have today. Thousands of denominations and sects all pointing and declaring each other heretics. Each one believes they have it just right....pat pat pat on da back! :tongue3:

Take away all the theological mumbo jumbo and just read the scriptures with each other and there would be no divisions. We would ALL agree with what was being read!!!!!! "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved" .....I bet we both say AMEN! :thumbs:

 

[BrotherJoseph]

(See bold) How?

Hi Brother Rebel,

Primitive Baptists differ from reformed theology on justification in that we maintain legal justification is based solely on the blood of Christ, not faith. We understand justification by faith in a different way than reformed theology.

Justification by Blood (Rom 5:9). This is legal justification in the sight of God. This happened ONCE in the history of all the Earth, when Christ made Himself an offering on the Cross. When Christ was made an offering for sins, God the Father was pleased with the Son's sacrifice and we were legally justified (declared just). This verdict occurs in God's courtroom! "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:9)

Justification by Faith (Rom 4). This is experiential. In short, when a born again person trusts solely in Christ's power to raise the dead, that faith is "counted unto him" for righteousness. The reality of being redeemed (justified by blood) is understood by the believer. That person, upon believing, experiences peace with God (5:1).

Paul's two examples of justification by faith are Abraham and David.

Abraham - According to Paul in Romans 4, Abraham was justified by faith in Genesis 15:6 when he believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Notice though, that Abraham left Ur in Genesis 12:1. According to Hebrews 11, Abraham left Ur by faith. According to Galatians 5:22, faith is a fruit of the Spirit. According to Hebrews 12:2, Christ authors Faith in a person. In short, no one has faith without first being born again (1 John 5:1). Faith is a product of the New Birth, when God writes His laws upon our hearts, and teaches us to “know Him” (Heb 8).

According to Reformed Theology however, justification by faith comes at the identical time as the new birth. Yet, we find Abraham walking by faith 15 years prior to the event in which he was “justified by faith,” all the way back in Genesis 12:1. Hmm...how can one walk by faith for over a decade prior to being justified by faith, if justification by faith and the new birth are synonyms? Simple, that idea is erroneous.

Abraham walked by faith, worship God, etc., prior to believing in Christ's power to raise his dead body in a reproductive sense. He was already born again. But, when he believed God's promise, his redeemed state with God was felt and he was justified on the level of his conscience. The legal fact was now a felt reality.

So what is Justification by faith? It is when a Child of God by God's power believes in Christ's atonement , he is now aware on the level of his conscience to be just, and experiences peace with God. This is experiential.

Justification by works (James 2). This occurs in the “courtroom of others' opinions.” By good works, we show ourselves to be righteous to other people. To quote James 2, we “show our faith by our works.”


To sum up, 3 justifications-

•By blood: God's courtroom.


•By faith: The courtroom of a believer's conscience.


•By works: The courtroom of onlookers' opinions.


God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Believe in Jesus. Joe, what does that mean to you?

19 Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder. Ja 2

It has to mean more than just a mere mental assent. To me it's total trust and reliance on Christ and submission to His will, and I say that with the conviction that most of us spend the most of our time 'in the flesh'. Thank God for the imputed righteousness of Christ!

Hi Brother Kyredneck,

The demons may believe, but Christ did not die for demons. Also notice that verse in James only refers to those who merely believe there is one God, it does not say "thou believest Jesus is the Christ". I believe "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..." (1 John 5:1) and "...no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost" (1 Corinthians 12:3). I would say this trust (belief) is simplified in what Paul declares is the gospel and is a simple declaration, "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

I would agree with you that we probably spend more time in the flesh than the Spirit. The longer I live on this earth the more I see how depraved my nature is and in need of grace. I see as Paul said, "for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I."

I do not relegate to Hell all the various denominations that end up getting tied up into a works gospel as this is the very thing the saints at the church of Galatia were guilty of believing in.


God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

God swore in His wrath 'they (His redeemed) shall not enter into my rest', and He 'destroyed' them in the wilderness. Yet, even after all the wickedness Israel had done in the wilderness after leaving Egypt (unbelief, disobedience, murmuring, idolatry, fornication, rebellion, etc.), and even with Balaam wanting so badly to curse Israel, God made Balaam to declare:

He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21
(Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not reckon sin. Ro 4:8)

Any wrath towards His children is in this temporal realm. There are no eternal consequences for His redeemed.



You see that word 'life' and you narrowly think only in the eternal sense? What about the QUALITY of eternal life, the abundant life, during our stay in this temporal realm?

10 The thief cometh not, but that he may steal, and kill, and destroy: I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly. Jn 10

12 Fight the good fight of the faith, lay hold on the life eternal, whereunto thou wast called, and didst confess the good confession in the sight of many witnesses.
19 laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on the life which is life indeed. 1 Tim 6

Brother Kyredneck,

I have enjoyed our discussion in this thread and hope there is no hard feelings that were produced. I believe we can agree and say amen to a lot of things such as legal justification solely by the blood, the Jesus is Lord, total depravity of the flesh, predestination of His elect, being born again by God's sovereign quickening and not be means of the gospel, the simplicity of the church service (no musical instruments, no Sunday school as the whole family worships together, no salaried Elders, etc), that the King James is the best version of the Bible, mode of baptism is by full body immersion and this is the method of how one becomes a church member.

I am going to just agree to disagree with you regarding if there will be in Heaven those who lived their whole life in rejection and nonbelief in the gospel and/or never knew who Jesus was or his work on the cross, etc. I do not believe this is what we find of those who have been born again in the New Testament, but you are free to hold to what you believe to be a Biblical belief as will I.

I will grant to you that there will be those in Heaven who never made a formal profession of faith (like you told Rebel) and I believe most if not all absoluter Primitives believe this as well. Such as the mentally handicap, those aborted at birth, those in tribes that the gospel preacher never made it to and have died off (scripture tells us He has redeemed people out of every people and nations Revelation 5:9), those infants dying in infancy. Jesus can reveal Himself to all such people independent of the gospel just as David said regarding God, "...thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts" (Psalm 22.9), but these are incapable of making a formal profession of faith.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Thanks for the info and quotes! :thumbsup: Now was this considered "new" theology/doctrine of the day? Or did all agree with him at the time?

Brother Steaver,

Did all or even most of the religious people of Jesus's day agree with the truth he preached? No they tried to kill Him. I don't take census polls to determine if a doctrine is true, if I did, I bet we would end up concluding mankind is saved by doing good works.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

And look at what we have today. Thousands of denominations and sects all pointing and declaring each other heretics. Each one believes they have it just right....pat pat pat on da back! :tongue3:

Take away all the theological mumbo jumbo and just read the scriptures with each other and there would be no divisions. We would ALL agree with what was being read!!!!!! "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved" .....I bet we both say AMEN! :thumbs:

Brother Steaver,

We probably interpret even the verse you gave me of "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved" differently. I do not interpret the "believe" in this verse to be causative (i.e. the reason the person is saved), but merely an evidence that they are saved, but you on the other hand probably believe it means you need to believe to get saved (if you don't please let me know). Big difference!

As far as if we all just read the scriptures with each other there would be no divisions this is not true as God has not given grace to every man to see that the scriptures merely testify of Jesus and that he alone saves. This is why Jesus said to those most well versed in scripture in His day, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39).

God bless,

Brother Joe