"Devotion" to Mary...

[Agnus_Dei]

Venerate means worship. There is no way around that. If I am correct about doulia, it also has the same connotation.

That's right DHK IF your are correct, see...you don't even know IF you are correct! Educate yourself DHK.

In XC
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[Johnv]

There's a symantic issue here. The word "worship" used to simply mean "to give reverence or respect to", and could be used to refer to any object of refernce. In the vernacular of the day, a husband would worship his wife, a servant worship his master, children worship their parents, etc. Today, the use of the word "worship" in this manner is offensive, since it now denotes the object of worship being a deity.

A Jew today will worship God and venerate a mezuza, and contextually understand the difference, even if the OT word for venerate and worsip were the same. Because our definition of worship has changed, we are now guilty of mach ado over nothing.

 

[DHK]

That's right DHK IF your are correct, see...you don't even know IF you are correct! Educate yourself DHK.

In XC
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Church theologians have long adopted the terms latria for the type of worship due to God alone, and dulia for the veneration given to saints and icons. Catholic theology also includes the term hyperdulia for the type of veneration specifically paid to Mary, mother of Jesus, in Catholic tradition. This distinction is spelled out in the dogmatic conclusions of the Seventh Ecumenical Council (787), which also decreed that iconoclasm (forbidding icons and their veneration) is a heresy that amounts to a denial of the incarnation of Jesus.

In Protestantism, except some members of the Lutheran and Anglican churches, veneration is sometimes considered to amount to the heresy of idolatry, and the related practice of canonization amounts to the heresy of apotheosis. Protestant theology usually denies that any real distinction between veneration and worship can be made, and claims that the practice of veneration distracts the Christian soul from its true object, the worship of God. In his Institutes of the Christian Religion, John Calvin writes that "(t)he distinction of what is called dulia and latria was invented for the very purpose of permitting divine honours to be paid to angels and dead men with apparent impunity." Likewise, Islam also condemns any veneration of icons. The Hindu honoring of icons and murtis, often seen as idolatry, may also be looked upon as a kind of veneration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulia

Calvin had settled this issue long ago. And he is right. Need I say any more?

 

[Matt Black]

Venerate means worship. There is no way around that.
If I am correct about doulia, it also has the same connotation.

Incorrect. If you wanted to say 'worship' in Greek, you would use latria (whence 'idolatry'). You wouldn't use doulia.

[ETA - I'd rather rely on Scripture and Tradition on this point rather than the opinion of man (Calvin)]

 

[Agnus_Dei]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulia

Calvin had settled this issue long ago. And he is right. Need I say any more?

Ohhhhhh Calvin settled it huh?

Soooo DHK are you now a Calvinist also!?

Or do you just pick and choose what to believe to suit your agenda?

In XC
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[DHK]

Ohhhhhh Calvin settled it huh?

Soooo DHK are you now a Calvinist also!?

Or do you just pick and choose what to believe to suit your agenda?

In XC
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Because you sometimes quote from Tertullian does that make you a Montanist? Ha Ha!! Swallow that one.

Tertullian was one of the Reformers. I sometimes quote from Wesley, but I am not a Methodist. I use many different resources. The Scripture remains my final authority. Calvin did use the Scripture. He wrote voluminously. And he was right on this matter, as have been most Protestants down throughout the centuries. The RCC and Orthodox have been blinded by this simple truth--worship of anything or anyone else but God is idolatry, and they continue to commit this horrible sin and continue to justify it by redefining words that mean worship. What a travesty is that!

 

[DHK]

Incorrect. If you wanted to say 'worship' in Greek, you would use latria (whence 'idolatry'). You wouldn't use doulia.

[ETA - I'd rather rely on Scripture and Tradition on this point rather than the opinion of man (Calvin)]

You may be relying on tradition, but not on Scripture. You have no Scripture to back up your position. Both words mean worship, and hence the horrible idolatry of the RCC and Orthodox Church. Even the Muslims condemn it. That in itself ought to put these so-called Christians to shame.

 

[FlyForFun]

Frankly, I think the truth is that the RC Church gives undue attention to Mary, and protestants don't pay enough respect to Mary, as the mother of Jesus.

Cheers,

Jim

OK... usually I nod in agreement when you post, Jim.. but this one is a head scratcher.

I'm not sure what we're supposed to do with Mary other than see her as another hero of the faith (even if she's not specifically mentioned in Hebrews Cloud of Witnesses).

I think it's interesting that Luke mentions twice that Mary "treasured these things in her heart." Perhaps Luke used Mary's memories in writing his Gospel?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Because you sometimes quote from Tertullian does that make you a Montanist? Ha Ha!! Swallow that one.

You got me DHK...lol...Of course we look at Tertullian's work prior to his fall into heresy...we're Orthodox and he was then Orthodox...duh!

After his fall into heresy, he was considered a heretic by the Church, regardless if he wrote anything that agreed with what was Orthodoxy after. As far as the Eastern Church was concerned he was outside the Church and any of his writings from that point on were irrelevant.

So in a fundamental Baptist frame of mind, John Calvin a former Roman Catholic was a heretic and that didn't change when he left the Catholic Church, because his theology regarding Calvinism was still heresy!

So in reality, as a fundamental Baptist, you shouldn't look to John Calvin as having authority on anything!

It would be different if let's say John Calvin started out as an Anabaptist and made a pronouncement on the term "veneration" and then later fall into the heresy of Calvinism...but that's not the case.

Furthermore, Calvin is hardly the authority on anything Orthodoxy...he was Roman Catholic! Total different views of theology.

In XC
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[FlyForFun]

You got me DHK...lol...Of course we look at Tertullian's work prior to his fall into heresy...we're Orthodox and he was then Orthodox...duh!

After his fall into heresy, he was considered a heretic by the Church, regardless if he wrote anything that agreed with what was Orthodoxy after. As far as the Eastern Church was concerned he was outside the Church and any of his writings from that point on were irrelevant.

So in a fundamental Baptist frame of mind, John Calvin a former Roman Catholic was a heretic and that didn't change when he left the Catholic Church, because his theology regarding Calvinism was still heresy!

So in reality, as a fundamental Baptist, you shouldn't look to John Calvin as having authority on anything!

It would be different if let's say John Calvin started out as an Anabaptist and made a pronouncement on the term "veneration" and then later fall into the heresy of Calvinism...but that's not the case.

Furthermore, Calvin is hardly the authority on anything Orthodoxy...he was Roman Catholic! Total different views of theology.

In XC
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Wow...this has got to be the worst string of discordant logic I've come across in a while. It's Jackson Pollack-esque in it's total randomness.

:thumbs:

Where to start???

 

[Alive in Christ]

Agnus Dei...

So the orthodox and Catholics only venerate Marty, but do not worship her? You just give her, honor, like the flag?

Well, lets see. Here is the pledge of allegience...

"I pledge allegience to the flag, of the United States of America, and to the republic, for which it stands. One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

Here is a typical prayer to Mary...

"PRAYER OF THE DEVOUT BLOSIUS

Hail, Mary, hope of those who are in despair,
help of the destitute!
Hail, thou whom thy Son so greatly honors,
that whatever thou askest,
thou dost at once obtain;
whatever thou willest is at once done.
To thee are the treasures of the kingdom of Heaven entrusted.
Grant, O Lady, that amid the storms of this life
I may always remember thee.
To thy charitable mercy I commend my soul and body.
O my sweet protectress
direct and protect me in every hour
in every moment of my life.

Now, in the past you have always said "Oh, that just *flowery* language, like in a Valentines card you give your wife."

Utter nonsense.

What is in that typical prayer to Mary, and the Orthodox and Catholics have hundreds of them, just like that, and even worse, is nothing short of pure GODDESS worship.

It couldnt possibly be any clearer

 

[DHK]

Wow...this has got to be the worst string of discordant logic I've come across in a while. It's Jackson Pollack-esque in it's total randomness.

:thumbs:

Where to start???

Yes he goes to any extreme.
Note that Calvin was an apostate RCC, and then saw the light and got saved.
Note also that Tertullian was first apostate, and then was converted according to his own testimony.
Note also, that all the Reformers/Protestants were those that Protested against the apostasy in the RCC, because they say it as an apostate church. They tried to reform it. But like Luther they eventually were kicked out of it.

 

[webdog]

The only one who can hear prayers is God. To pray to anyone other than God is idolatry. Prayer is worship...not veneration or respect. When you pray to Mary, you are worshiping her, period.

 

[Jim1999]

I will respect Mary as did the Lord. Mariolatry and perpetual virginity was a carryover from Catholic teaching and has nothing to do with scripture.

Some even go as far as teaching that Mary was the mother of God! What heresy! When was an eternal God born?

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Agnus_Dei]

The only one who can hear prayers is God. To pray to anyone other than God is idolatry. Prayer is worship...not veneration or respect. When you pray to Mary, you are worshiping her, period.

So webdog, why was it then when I was a Protestant Baptist, we had separate services...a Wednesday evening "prayer" service and a Sunday morning "worship" service?

...some bulletins I've seen even read "Prayer and worship service"

In the meantime, if I were to ask you to pray for me, I'm essentially "praying" to you, as I am "requesting" you to do something on my behalf...am I worshipping you webdog?

In XC
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[Agnus_Dei]

Some even go as far as teaching that Mary was the mother of God! What heresy! When was an eternal God born?

So Jim, please interpret Jesus for us as St. John recorded in his Gospel:

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.(John 8:58)​

Thanks,

In XC
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[Zenas]

I will respect Mary as did the Lord. Mariolatry and perpetual virginity was a carryover from Catholic teaching and has nothing to do with scripture.

Some even go as far as teaching that Mary was the mother of God! What heresy! When was an eternal God born?

Cheers,

Jim

Jim, I don't think you are comprehending the concept of the Theotokos.

Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Mary is the mother of God.

It's just logic. So far as I know, everyone agrees that Mary is a creature just as you and I are. We know that Jesus existed before Mary was ever born, yet we have no problem with Mary's motherhood of Jesus. Why should we have a problem with Mary's motherhood of God?

 

[Zenas]

The only one who can hear prayers is God. To pray to anyone other than God is idolatry. Prayer is worship...not veneration or respect. When you pray to Mary, you are worshiping her, period.

You may have too narrow a view of prayer. Read Shakespeare and you will see repeated use of phrases such as, "I pray thee . . . ." The meaning is, "I request that you do something." Shakespeare, who was a contemporary of the scribes of King James, did not use the term "prayer" to mean worship.

Also, I hope you have never been on the wrong end of a lawsuit but if you have, you surely noticed that the last sentence of the petition or complaint goes something like this: "Wherefore, plaintiff prays for judgment against the defendant . . . ." This is called the prayer for relief, in which the plaintiff specifies what he wants out of the lawsuit.

I do agree that prayer is not necessarily veneration or respect but I can't agree that it is always worship.

 

[DHK]

Jim, I don't think you are comprehending the concept of the Theotokos.

Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Mary is the mother of God.

It's just logic. So far as I know, everyone agrees that Mary is a creature just as you and I are. We know that Jesus existed before Mary was ever born, yet we have no problem with Mary's motherhood of Jesus. Why should we have a problem with Mary's motherhood of God?

We do. Theotokos is a known heresy.

 

[DHK]

You may have too narrow a view of prayer. Read Shakespeare and you will see repeated use of phrases such as, "I pray thee . . . ." The meaning is, "I request that you do something." Shakespeare, who was a contemporary of the scribes of King James, did not use the term "prayer" to mean worship.

Also, I hope you have never been on the wrong end of a lawsuit but if you have, you surely noticed that the last sentence of the petition or complaint goes something like this: "Wherefore, plaintiff prays for judgment against the defendant . . . ." This is called the prayer for relief, in which the plaintiff specifies what he wants out of the lawsuit.

I do agree that prayer is not necessarily veneration or respect but I can't agree that it is always worship.

Most words have more than one meaning.
Check your dictionary on the different meanings of "church." Only one of them is Biblical.
The same holds true for "pray," in this discussion. Don't go off on rabbit trails playing games of semantics.