"Devotion" to Mary...

[ReformedBaptist]

They defend and run into because the "world wonders after the beast."

The papacy is the Antichrist, that Man of Sin, foretold in Scripture.

 

[Zenas]

We do. Theotokos is a known heresy.

A heresy according to whom?

 

[Zenas]

Most words have more than one meaning.
Check your dictionary on the different meanings of "church." Only one of them is Biblical.
The same holds true for "pray," in this discussion. Don't go off on rabbit trails playing games of semantics.

It's not games of semantics. The commonly accepted definition of prayer includes worship but it not limited to worship. In fact the most common usage of "prayer" is to express a request. So when I pray, I may be worshiping but I may just be asking God for something. There is a difference. I know you don't think so, mainly because you don't want to think so and there is nothing I can say that would change your mind. You're entitled to your opinion but that is what it is, nothing more. Don't feign surprise if there are many who don't agree.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Theotokos is a known heresy.

A heresy according to whom?

Let me guess DHK...Calvin?

In XC
-

 

[Agnus_Dei]

The papacy is the Antichrist, that Man of Sin, foretold in Scripture.

Yeah, there's a lot of Orthodox Monks on Mount Athos that believe that!

In XC
-

 

[DHK]

It's not games of semantics. The commonly accepted definition of prayer includes worship but it not limited to worship. In fact the most common usage of "prayer" is to express a request. So when I pray, I may be worshiping but I may just be asking God for something. There is a difference. I know you don't think so, mainly because you don't want to think so and there is nothing I can say that would change your mind. You're entitled to your opinion but that is what it is, nothing more. Don't feign surprise if there are many who don't agree.

On this board normally when we talk about God it is about "Our Father who art in Heaven...", not Allah whom the Muslims believe.
In this discussion we are speaking of prayer in the context of worship, not in the context of the OE request of someone. And you don't go around speaking Shakespearean English do you? I pray thee please explaineth this matter to me.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Mary cannot answer a single prayer made to her. Only God can hear from Heaven and answer our prayers. Omnipresence is a God attribute that no one else has.

 

[Zenas]

On this board normally when we talk about God it is about "Our Father who art in Heaven...", not Allah whom the Muslims believe.
In this discussion we are speaking of prayer in the context of worship, not in the context of the OE request of someone. And you don't go around speaking Shakespearean English do you? I pray thee please explaineth this matter to me.

It is not "we" but you who chooses to speak of prayer in the exclusive context of worship. I know what a prayer is and you apparently do not. I won't try to change your mind but likewise don't expect me to accept your definitions of words, expecially when your definitions are not in line with commonly accepted meanings.

 

[Zenas]

Mary cannot answer a single prayer made to her. Only God can hear from Heaven and answer our prayers. Omnipresence is a God attribute that no one else has.

And you know that how?

 

[DHK]

It is not "we" but you who chooses to speak of prayer in the exclusive context of worship. I know what a prayer is and you apparently do not. I won't try to change your mind but likewise don't expect me to accept your definitions of words, expecially when your definitions are not in line with commonly accepted meanings.

Note the topic of the thread: "Devotion' to Mary...
Why are you changing the topic and derailing this thread with red herrings about Shakespearean English? The topic is devotion to Mary. If you can't stay on topic maybe you shouldn't participate. We are not discussing OE words here. That should be obvious to you.

You arrogantly accuse me of one who chooses to speak of prayer exclusively in the context of worship.
Please read the OP before you post again!

 

[DHK]

And you know that how?

Because omniscience and omnipresence are characteristics that belong only to God. Mary is not a god, as the RCC treat her.

 

[Zenas]

Because omniscience and omnipresence are characteristics that belong only to God. Mary is not a god, as the RCC treat her.

Well, let's see about that. Jesus said in Luke 15:10, "In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." While this doesn't prove omniscience on the part of the angels, it does show that they are aware of what is happening in the heart of every person on earth.

Now, let's compare angels with saints in Heaven. Jesus said in Luke 20:36, "for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection." Saints in Heaven seem to have the same qualities as angels. This means they have the ability to know what is happening to people on earth. Of course, that means they can hear our prayers. And while considering scripture, let's not forget Hebrews 12:22-24, which demonstrates the communion of saints as clearly as anything I have read:

22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,
23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Now leaving out all the theology that we have concerning Mary, we can all agree that she made it into Heaven. We can also agree that because she gave birth to our Lord, she enjoys a very close relationship with Him. So, it's very normal, and scripturally justifiable, to venerate and pray to Mary. No, Mary is not a god. She is a creature and anyone who regards her otherwise is ignorant and superstitious. But the fact that she isn't a god doesn't render her unworthy of prayer and honor.

By the way, my question, "And you know this how?" remains unanswered.

 

[Darron Steele]

[ Deleted by me. ]

 

[DHK]

Well, let's see about that. Jesus said in Luke 15:10, "In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." While this doesn't prove omniscience on the part of the angels, it does show that they are aware of what is happening in the heart of every person on earth.

No it doesn't. Jesus does not give you the number of angels in heaven.
Jesus does not say that ALL angels are rejoicing, as if there is omniscience.
Jesus says "the angels in heaven rejoice." He doesn't say All, how many, etc. He was making a general statement to say that there is joy in heaven. He didn't say by what means the angels found out the sinner was saved. Maybe the Father sent them a message via twitter

Now, let's compare angels with saints in Heaven. Jesus said in Luke 20:36, "for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection." Saints in Heaven seem to have the same qualities as angels. This means they have the ability to know what is happening to people on earth.

Not true. The passage does not say that. Jesus is speaking about marriage in that passage. Angels are not omniscient; only God is. Angels do not know what is going on in this earth; they only know what God permits them to know.
Christ said that man would be like the angels in the respect that both would be immortal. They would no longer be subject to death. That is what Christ was speaking about. Therefore marriage was irrelevant.

Of course, that means they can hear our prayers.

Strictly your opinion, an opinion which deifies angels and dead people. Just how many gods do you believe in?

And while considering scripture, let's not forget Hebrews 12:22-24, which demonstrates the communion of saints as clearly as anything I have read:

Hebrews 12:21-24 and, so fearful was the sight, Moses said, I am exceedingly afraid and full of trembling.
22 but ye have come to mount Zion; and to the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem; and to myriads of angels,
23 the universal gathering; and to the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven; and to God, judge of all; and to the spirits of just men made perfect;
24 and to Jesus, mediator of a new covenant; and to the blood of sprinkling, speaking better than Abel.

What Communion of saints. The author of the book of Hebrews is contrasting what happened at Mount Sinai under Moses to what will happen when we gather together in heaven. He is relating that situation to Jewish believers (and thus the "Book of Hebrews).

Now leaving out all the theology that we have concerning Mary, we can all agree that she made it into Heaven.

Needless to say Mary is dead. Praying to the dead is necromancy and is condemned in the Bible. One doesn't pray to the dead. It is also called Spiritism. That is how people get involved in the occult. In eastern religions, like Shintoism, people pray to their dead ancestors. It is paganism to pray to the dead. Why would you advocate praying to the dead. Mary is dead. Her body is dead and in the grave.

We can also agree that because she gave birth to our Lord, she enjoys a very close relationship with Him.

She's dead.

So, it's very normal, and scripturally justifiable, to venerate and pray to Mary.

It is abnormal to pray to dead people. Do you also go into the middle of cemeteries to carry on this practice?
It is not justifiable to worship (venerate) anyone but God. Anything else is idolatry! Why do you condone idolatry?

No, Mary is not a god. She is a creature and anyone who regards her otherwise is ignorant and superstitious. But the fact that she isn't a god doesn't render her unworthy of prayer and honor.

Those who pray to her have made her a god. The command in the Bible is to worship God alone. Have you never heard of the Ten Commandments?

By the way, my question, "And you know this how?" remains unanswered.

There are certain attributes that belong to God alone:
omniscience
omnipresence
omnipotence.
Only God possesses these characteristics. Satan tries to imitate them, and he tried to become omnipotent at one time.

Isaiah 14:13-15 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Satan, once an angel, failed in his quest to be God. He could not be omnipotent and bring down God. Only God is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present. These attributes belong only to God.

 

[Zenas]

Zenas:

Now leaving out all the theology that we have concerning Mary, we can all agree that she made it into Heaven.

DHK:

One doesn't pray to the dead. It is also called Spiritism. That is how people get involved Needless to say Mary is dead. Praying to the dead is necromancy and is condemned in the in the occult. In eastern religions, like Shintoism, people pray to their dead ancestors. It is paganism to pray to the dead. Why would you advocate praying to the dead. Mary is dead. Her body is dead and in the grave.

Zenas:

We can also agree that because she gave birth to our Lord, she enjoys a very close relationship with Him.

DHK:

She's dead.

DHK, do you believe is soul sleep? Without coming out and saying so, you imply that Mary is not in Heaven. That means she is either dead in the grave or she is in Hell. I don't think you mean the latter, so I have to conclude you do believe in soul sleep.

 

[DHK]

Zenas:
DHK:
Zenas:
DHK:
DHK, do you believe is soul sleep? Without coming out and saying so, you imply that Mary is not in Heaven. That means she is either dead in the grave or she is in Hell. I don't think you mean the latter, so I have to conclude you do believe in soul sleep.

No I don't believe in soul sleep--not at all.
If you come from a Christian family, and you have some assurance from what you have heard from your parents that your grand parents and great grand parents were saved. Would you go to the cemetery and pray to them?
Or would you even pray to them in church or even in your room? Why would you pray for them or to them, knowing that they are dead. I live in Canada. The Governor General of the Province of Quebec is a known spiritist. She said: "I talk to my ancestors frequently." Do you do this? For the same reason would you talk to Mary? They are all dead!!

The resurrection has not yet taken place!
--And that statement applies to Mary as well.
Praying or talking to the dead is condemned in the Bible.

 

[Jim1999]

Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners, now
and in the hour of our death.

Common prayer offered in the Catholic churches, and it isn't going to happen.

These are the results of an incorrect point of theology gone awry.

Nowhere in scripture does it teach anyone to worship Mary, let alone pray to her. There is only one mediator in heaven and that is Christ Jesus the Lord.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Marcia]

Jesus said in Luke 15:10, "In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." While this doesn't prove omniscience on the part of the angels, it does show that they are aware of what is happening in the heart of every person on earth.

How do you know that they aren't told about the repentance by God? We can't assume they know it on their own.

Now, let's compare angels with saints in Heaven. Jesus said in Luke 20:36, "for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection." Saints in Heaven seem to have the same qualities as angels. This means they have the ability to know what is happening to people on earth.

You have not shown that at all. We are like angels in a certain respect, but not necessarily in others.

Of course, that means they can hear our prayers.

No, it doesn't.

And while considering scripture, let's not forget Hebrews 12:22-24, which demonstrates the communion of saints as clearly as anything I have read

The communion of saints in heaven, yes.

Now leaving out all the theology that we have concerning Mary, we can all agree that she made it into Heaven. We can also agree that because she gave birth to our Lord, she enjoys a very close relationship with Him.

Okay so far.

So, it's very normal, and scripturally justifiable, to venerate and pray to Mary.

No, you made a leap here! We cannot pray to someone who is not God!

No, Mary is not a god. She is a creature and anyone who regards her otherwise is ignorant and superstitious. But the fact that she isn't a god doesn't render her unworthy of prayer and honor.

Yes, it does. Only God is worthy of honor and we are never instructed to pray to anyone else.

 

[annsni]

So, it's very normal, and scripturally justifiable, to venerate and pray to Mary.

I looked up "venerate" on Dictionary.com because it's a common Catholic term but not one that is used a lot in regular life. Here's what it says:

to regard or treat with reverence; revere.
Origin:
1615–25; < L venerātus, ptp. of venerārī to solicit the goodwill of (a god), worship, revere, v. deriv. of vener-, s. of venus, presumably in its original sense “desire”; see Venus )

Some of the synonyms are idolize, worship, adore.

I do not reverence, idolize, worship or adore Mary. She was a human woman - a sinner just like me. Yes, I think it's wonderful that she was so blessed as to carry the human body of the Savior, but that doesn't mean she's worthy of worship or adoration. I reserve that for God alone.

Show me the Scripture where we are to "venerate" anyone other than God.

No, Mary is not a god. She is a creature and anyone who regards her otherwise is ignorant and superstitious. But the fact that she isn't a god doesn't render her unworthy of prayer and honor.

Yes it does. Prayer is given to God only. Mary cannot hear our prayers. She's not omniscient so we'd have to say our prayers out loud - but why go to her when we have ONE mediator between God and man - Jesus Christ? We don't need to go to anyone else who's dead and cannot do anything for us (can you show me where the dead do anything for those on earth?). We go to God alone.

By the way, my question, "And you know this how?" remains unanswered.

This is asking how do we know that only God is omnipresent. Can you show me where in Scripture someone else was in more than one place? Where anyone knew what was going on elsewhere without direct revelation from God?

 

[Zenas]

How do you know that they aren't told about the repentance by God? We can't assume they know it on their own.

We don't know how they find out but we certainly can assume they know it on their own. Scripture says nothing to the contrary, and we know angels are powerful beings. The logical conclusion is that they do know it on their own. Only those who, without scriptural foundation, want to deny that angels could be aware of the thoughts and hearts of men would try to find a way to explain that angels are not really capable of kowing our thoughts.

You have not shown that at all. We are like angels in a certain respect, but not necessarily in others.

All right, we know saints in Heaven are like angels in that they don't marry and they are immortal. Jesus says they are like the angels, but let's draw the line at these two similarities. To do more might lend credence to your theory that saints in Heaven have no power to perceive what is happening on earth. And we wouldn't want to allow for that possibility, would we?

The communion of saints in heaven, yes.

Hebrews 12:22: "But you have come to Mount Zion . . . ." Sure sounds like saints on earth to me. Incidentally at least one prominent Baptist theologian agrees with me on this point.