Whether Heaven is physical now, we don't know...but we do know that New Earth will be, and that is Heaven.
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"Devotion" to Mary...
- Thread starter Alive in Christ
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You and Annsni are both presuming a present physicality to Heaven in your last two posts. Does prayer have to be out loud to be heard in Heaven?
[ETA - will be offline now until 2am EST, so I'mnot ignoring further responses but will get to them as soon as I can tomorrow]
[ETA - will be offline now until 2am EST, so I'mnot ignoring further responses but will get to them as soon as I can tomorrow]
There is some allegory and some tradition. After re-reading it, perhaps it relies more on tradition. Where does the immaculate conception of Mary come from? Your post mentions it. Likewise it mentions the perpetual virginity of Mary. These heretical positions can be disproven by the Bible without much effort. Only with a combination of allegory and tradition can they be accepted. I suppose that is why the doctrine of sola scriptura is such a hated doctrine among the RCC.
There is nothing to assume...all one has to do is read the Bible to see that humans are created for a physical world. We don't cease being human once we get to Heaven. We will not be disembodied spirits floating around, else the resurrection is meaningless. If one claims the physical language in Scripture is not to taken literally in regards to Heaven, the burden of proof falls on that person.
Only God can read the minds of people. To claim that humans in Heaven can have this trait, as well as being omnipresent (what Mary would need to be to hear simultaneous prayer) is silly.
How physical is it? Does it all have to be allegory? I don't think so.
Revelation 21:1-3 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
This earth will be destroyed. That is physical, and that sets the scene.
Then he speaks of holy city called the new Jerusalem. That seems to be physical.
Then the presence of God is spoken of in a physical sense. God will be with his people, and will dwell with them. That also seems physical.
Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
It was something that John could see.
Revelation 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
--In these next verse he describes in detail its colors, its materials, and even its measurements. That again refers to something physical.
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
--Those that are allowed in, and those that are not. Again, something physical.
Since the Holy Spirit is within us, He hears our prayers even when we don't know what to pray. We don't even need to utter them - He knows our hearts. But when we pray, we don't need to pray out loud for God to hear them. Praying out loud is for our own benefit and for the benefit of others if we're praying together. There are times I will pray out loud to keep my focus but otherwise I tend to pray silently.
Last night I got word, just one day after we buried a dear sweet woman from our church who died of leukemia that another dear man in our church was diagnosed with the same exact cancer and was admitted to the hospital immediately for chemo. That's exactly how Eileen started her treatment - just 8 weeks ago. My heart is broken and I couldn't even mouth the words that I felt but God knew my prayers anyway. Today I'm actually able to state them but last night I just felt sick, heartbroken and couldn't even think. God knows. God hears. No one else in heaven has that power.
If Jesus told us that He's preparing a "place" for us, then I'll take Him at His word. I don't believe it's a higher level of existence at all but an actual physical place. But can we travel there? No. No one can get to heaven unless they have passed from this world and they are saved.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Did you even read my post or just take snips out of it? I wondered at how the Greek world view or more specifically Greek approach to philosophy starting at one point necissarily ended at another agianst the original intent. So we start with Christ Divinity and to ensure that people would not concieve of a Christ that was not Divine they identified Mary as Theotokos. But in doing that did they necissarily back themselves into a corner where Mary is venerated? This was my question and pondering of the historical fact. Back then to say that Mary was the Mother of God was to certify Jesus' divinity. But doing that, did they set themselves up for Marian devotion? I guess according to you I must take Revelation literally and assume that there will be a sea monster and a real firebreathing dragon taking over the world!!! Sounds more like the Hobbit than the bible. These scripture verses are case in point of certain parts of the bible having to be taken allegorically.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Well, if heaven is physical we should be able to get there given enough time and technology.
Why when Jesus said that no one comes to the Father but through Him?
No amount of time and technology can surpass God's sovereignty. He sets the limits, the conditions...we are bound to Him.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Because apart from Christ there is no desire to even attain the father. But my point is that Heaven isn't physical its beyond that. Won't there be a new heaven and a new earth?
Well, it can't be "new" if it never existed in the first place, can it?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Just because something is not physical does not mean it does not exist. Our spirits for instance are not physical but they exist and they can exist without the body. Angels are spiritual and they exist. Heaven is not physical it is beyond that.
How did the angels eat with Abraham without real physical bodies? How did Jesus do the same after his resurrection?
You suffer from what Dr. Alcorn refers to as Christoplatonism.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
They take on physical form when speaking with Abraham. I think making angels resemble humans in their natural form is too Mormon. Angels are spiritual beings not elevated humans.
We will have spiritual bodies one day, in fact they will be as Christ's after His resurrection. None of the 500 He appeared to would say His body was not physical...yet it is deemed a "spiritual body". This simply means it is free from death, and I'm sure with benefits our fallen bodies lack. I never claimed angels were elevated humans, they are part of God's creation as we are, and nothing with my view is even remotely close to mormonism...it is straight from Scripture.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Good because angels can make themselves to look human but are not. And in their natural environment they would be indeed strange to look at. I take that view straight from Ezekiel. (which is in scriptures) And just as Jesus is beyond our bodies in his spiritual body so is heaven. I think rather closely to Lewis on this. The physical world we inhabit (or the world of matter) is the wisp of smoke compared to the spiritual realm. So in the bible when it describes Jesus passing through walls is it he that passes through the walls or the walls pass through him? The Heavenly realm is Beyond (in that respect of example I gave) our material one which is why there is no technology or distance that will take us there we must exist first on its level which we currently do not. That realm lies out side of the sphere of time and space. Time and Space are encased in that realm. Which makes the point of where someone is when in heaven irrelevant.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Non sequitur
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