"Devotion" to Mary...

[Thinkingstuff]

I never said anything about "baptist" or "baptistic."

Authentic means there was a true church and true believers ever since the church started. Christ himself said the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Christ is the head and foundation of the church; it cannot be defeated by any strategy against it. Some may fall way and many have, but the church and authentic biblical faith has always been there, and will be until Jesus comes back.

The creeds show there was authentic faith, defining the essentials of the faith.

Cults always claim the "true church" fell away and they have come to re-establish it (the Mormons, and thousands of Christian cults say this), but the true church has always been there.

I agree with your post entirely. I was partly explaining why I questioned the evolution of the church with regard to Greek Philosophy. Also I want to debunk those who hold to Carrol's view related in the Trail of Blood or a similiar vein of thought.

 

[targus]

When it comes to doctrines of the church -- I have to say that is very sound advice -- "sola scriptura".

In Christ,

Bob

And when it comes to doctrines of the SDA - it is sound advice to remember that they include Ellen White as an author of scripture.

"Sola scriptura" to an SDA means the bible filtered through the writings of Ellen White with Ellen White as the controlling authority.

 

[BobRyan]

I think Webdog gave a good answer to this.

It's important to realize that when the Bible says a "spiritual body" that we must define a "spiritual body" by what the Bible means by it. Let the Bible define its terms. A lot of people put a modern meaning on this and think of a "spirit body," i.e., a ghostly or non-material body.

But since the Bible clearly shows us that Jesus had physicality in his body after his resurrection, that his scars showed, he ate and drank, he had "flesh and bone," then we know that is what we will have.

Our earthly bodies decay because they are the corrupt body affected by sin and so must die (1 Cor 15). From what the Bible tells us, we may have some sort of in-between physical body (though the only passage on this is in Luke 16) but our glorified resurrected bodies will be given later, after Jesus comes back.

The Bible is silent on what type of body Jesus had between Good Friday and Easter Sunday.

Jesus does have a body now - the glorified body he resurrected in.

Amen! Preach it!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Then why don't you believe in the Eucharist? Or venerate Mary? If the Greeks had no influence on Christianity? How do you determine that every Classical Church does these things if not for the Greek world view. The Roman Catholics, The Orthodox, and the Copts? Even ancient heretical movements held to these consepts such as the Nestorians, Arians, etc... How then did Christianity divert to believe these things? How did these become dogmatic issues for they are old. Tertullian discusses the perpetual virginity of Mary as does Jerome and Augustine. Justin describes the consepts of the Eucharist early in the 2nd Century. These are ancient ideas not modern invention. So how did Christianity get off course until the reformers emerged if not for greek philosophy? there are no writings that reflect the reformers ideas in the 2nd; 3rd; or 4th centuries until we get to the 1100s. I don't believe the Classical churches were so thrurough as to destroy all evidence of the existance of these contrary views until the 1100's. Just like they could not dispence of all traces of gnosticism (which is definately from a greek world view). There was the Nag Hammurabi find there is no such find for reformed ideas until the 1100's. So what must you conclude?

Christianity in its infancy was struggeling with certain consepts and went too far in one direction and the Holy Spirit brought the church back through the reformers. What other view is there? Certainly there is no evidence to support Caroll.

The Apostles guided the church in its infancy - through the first century without any false doctrine about Mary "sinless like Christ" or Mary "Co-redemptrix" or Mary "Queen of Heaven" and not one single "Prayer to Mary" recorded in all of scripture.

But as you point out - Greek (and Roman) paganism crept into the church over the next few centuries -- most significantly at the time of the 4th century when persecution ceased and the pagan Roman empire decided to embrace the Christian faith by order of Emperor Constantine. Even Catholic historians admit that the pagan gods were adopted in - given names of saints and the same candles and practice of praying to the dead was introduced.

Thus a flood gate of error - which the Reformation finally began to address and turn the church back to the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Agnus_Dei]

The Apostles guided the church in its infancy

Yep, the Apostles were guided by the Holy Spirit, just as Christ promised...This is called Holy Tradition!

The Apostles guided the church in its infancy - through the first century without any false doctrine about Mary "sinless like Christ" or Mary "Co-redemptrix" or Mary "Queen of Heaven"

Keep in mind, these are dogma's of the Roman Catholic Church (post 1054)...not the Orthodox Church.

and not one single "Prayer to Mary" recorded in all of scripture.

It could be b/c Mary was still alive when the pages of the NT were being written...Furthermore, the NT isn't an end all guide on how the Church should function and be structured...The Church was in existence and operating well before the NT became official...hence your comment..." The Apostles guided the church in its infancy"

In XC
-

 

[FlyForFun]

It could be b/c Mary was still alive when the pages of the NT were being written...Furthermore, the NT isn't an end all guide on how the Church should function and be structured...The Church was in existence and operating well before the NT became official...hence your comment..." The Apostles guided the church in its infancy"

In XC
-

If we accept the conservative view that the NT books were completed by 90 AD, you would have to concede that the theology was rich and well-thought out very early in the Church, and that despite this extant rich theology, letters were written to correct errors that crept in early.

My question for you is this -- what would the Apostles be teaching that wasn't already captured in the NT texts?

 

[Matt Black]

Perhaps more significantly, what were the Apostles and other followers of Jesus doing?

 

[Matt Black]

OK, a question: who do people think the woman is in Rev 12?

 

[annsni]

OK, a question: who do people think the woman is in Rev 12?

Israel/the Church.

 

[Amy.G]

OK, a question: who do people think the woman is in Rev 12?

She is Israel. It cannot be the Church because the Church did not give birth to the Christ.

 

[Matt Black]

On what Scriptural basis do you say Israel and not Mary?

 

[DHK]

On what Scriptural basis do you say Israel and not Mary?

The Church started in Acts on the Day of Pentecost, where we find Mary praying with the other Apostles, and the other 120 disciples. She was their equal. She was one person of 120. She was not elevated above any other person. In fact she is not mentioned again after that. She was alive during the church age but not prominent.

Christ came from the Jewish nation. Mary was simply a human vessel used of God to bear him into the world. God could have used someone else, but he chose Mary. He had to choose someone. Mary was a sinner just like us all.

 

[Matt Black]

Not sure that answers the question I posed. On as plain a reading as one can have with Revelation, the male child (v5) is Christ. Which woman gave birth to Christ? Mary. I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that Israel or the Church gave birth to Christ (in the latter case, surely it's the other way round).

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Not sure that answers the question I posed. On as plain a reading as one can have with Revelation, the male child (v5) is Christ. Which woman gave birth to Christ? Mary. I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that Israel or the Church gave birth to Christ (in the latter case, surely it's the other way round).

and i would like to add Matt that per Revelation 12:6...the "woman" fled into the wilderness...anyone, with even an elementary knowledge of the Gospels would know that Mary, along with Joesph fled Israel sometime after the birth of Christ.

...but OH NO, the "child" is literal for Christ and the "woman" has to be figurative for Israel....

In XC
-

 

[DHK]

Not sure that answers the question I posed. On as plain a reading as one can have with Revelation, the male child (v5) is Christ. Which woman gave birth to Christ? Mary. I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that Israel or the Church gave birth to Christ (in the latter case, surely it's the other way round).

Look at the context.

Revelation 12:5-6 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The woman (Israel--often referred to in the feminine gender in the OT) brought forth a man child.
Jesus himself told the Samaritan woman: "Salvation is of the Jews."

The woman fled into the wilderness. (Mary never did this.)
There she was protected for 1,260 days or 42 months or 3 1/2 years.
That speaks of the Great Tribulation or Jacob's Trouble, where at the end Jesus Christ will come again and all Israel shall be saved. Before the Tribulation, the rapture will occur and Mary (her body) shall be raptured. She is dead. She is not alive now. She will not be going through this time period mentioned in verse 6.

 

[Amy.G]

and i would like to add Matt that per Revelation 12:6...the "woman" fled into the wilderness...anyone, with even an elementary knowledge of the Gospels would know that Mary, along with Joesph fled Israel sometime after the birth of Christ.

...but OH NO, the "child" is literal for Christ and the "woman" has to be figurative for Israel....

In XC
-

When did Mary flee into the wildnerness for 3 1/2 years?
The word "wilderness" means uninhabited. When did Mary flee to an uninhabited place?

 

[annsni]

On what Scriptural basis do you say Israel and not Mary?

Does not the Catholic church say that Mary had a painless childbirth because she was not touched by the stain of sin?

Then how could the Revelation passage speak of Mary? Verse 2 tells us "She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. "

 

[annsni]

Not sure that answers the question I posed. On as plain a reading as one can have with Revelation, the male child (v5) is Christ. Which woman gave birth to Christ? Mary. I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that Israel or the Church gave birth to Christ (in the latter case, surely it's the other way round).

Was not Jesus a child of Israel?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

When did Mary flee into the wildnerness for 3 1/2 years?
The word "wilderness" means uninhabited. When did Mary flee to an uninhabited place?

Hi Amy...why did the woman in Revelation 12 flee? Why did Mary and Joseph flee?

The "dragon" in Rev 12 was ready to devour the child as soon as it was born, thus the "woman" fled into the wilderness...likewise King Herod in St. Matthew's Gospel account sent forth to slew all the children 2 years and younger, thus Mary fled with the child (Jesus)...into a Egypt.

The parallel between the two accounts are the same, regardless of your definition of "wilderness", which is irrelevant...both women fled with their child to keep harm from their child...

In XC
_

 

[DHK]

why did the woman in Revelation 12 flee? Why did Mary and Joseph flee?

You have answered that question for yourself--from the Bible.

The "dragon" in Rev 12 was ready to devour the child as soon as it was born, thus the "woman" fled into the wilderness...likewise King Herod in St. Matthew's Gospel account sent forth to slew all the children 2 years and younger, thus Mary fled with the child (Jesus)...into a Egypt.

The Biblical account tells of Mary and Joseph fleeing into Egypt. How long did they stay there? Please explain.

The parallel between the two accounts are the same, regardless of your definition of "wilderness", which is irrelevant...both women fled with their child to keep harm from their child...
In XC
_

Given the context, there are two many discrepancies that you have not accounted for, especially the time period--3 1/2 years. Where did Mary flee into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years?

Read everything between, and then read the conclusion:

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Satan was not so much angry with Mary, as he is with remnant of the seed that came forth later--Christianity. The woman is Israel. Mary came through the line of David, an Israelite. Christ is a Jew that will someday rule from the throne of David. Satan will make war with remnant that came after Mary--Christianity, as has already been seen.