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Did a C or A say this?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reynolds, Mar 20, 2022.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This is absolutely correct. I am not "in-between" but neither.
     
    #21 JonC, Mar 21, 2022
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  2. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I know where it came from. If faith is the first part, in other words, we initiate, that is works based. I know that is not what JM is stating. God initiates, gives us the faith to reach out and accept the gift he has given us already. It's already ours. That's the difference. I was saying just by reading that one line there isn't the context you have on the rest of JM's overall theology on the topic and what he means by that.
     
    #22 Reformed1689, Mar 21, 2022
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  3. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Which is just ignorant. Either one is totally correct and all of Scripture supports it, or Neither are correct and none of Scripture supports it, or both have partial correctness and some of Scripture supports both. That last category is the onlyway that view can be true.
     
    #23 Reformed1689, Mar 21, 2022
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  4. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Of course J.M. believes God initiates the faith, but it has been repeatedly stated on here that receiving is a "work".
     
    #24 Reynolds, Mar 21, 2022
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  5. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    There we have it. John Macarthur and D James Kennedy are ignorant.
    If you listen to Mac, he quite often admits passages are problematic to Calvinism. He believed that a proponderance of the evidence falls to Calvinism.
     
    #25 Reynolds, Mar 21, 2022
  6. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    There are parts of this statement that are true, but overall this is an unfair characterization.
     
    #26 Reformed1689, Mar 21, 2022
  7. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I can't speak for others, that's not what I have argued. It depends on how you nuance it.
     
    #27 Reformed1689, Mar 21, 2022
  8. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I've never actually seen JM state that any Scripture supports Arminianism. Do you have any references?
     
    #28 Reformed1689, Mar 21, 2022
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  9. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I certainly have not avoided it, so I don't know how you can honestly make this statement.
     
    #29 Reformed1689, Mar 21, 2022
  10. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    from experience. Although I may be surprised. I doubt you will get an answer..

    From my experience they wait until time passes and people forget. then they will come in and start blame shifting and taking the topic off what was being asked.
     
    #30 Eternally Grateful, Mar 21, 2022
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  11. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    Same here..But I have been called an arminian by a calvinist. and a calvinist by an arminian.
     
    #31 Eternally Grateful, Mar 21, 2022
  12. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    you can find support for both views.

    Eternal security supports calvin

    yet free will supports arminian

    I believe in both.. So there is no way to have a proper discussion with either group if they attempt to put me under a calvin vs arminian debate.
     
    #32 Eternally Grateful, Mar 21, 2022
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Crickets or insults.

    I think the issue is Calvinists are a relatively small group within Christianity and they can function as a more concise sect because they have adopted the same theories.

    When is the last time you heard a Calvinist (on this forum) applaud a non-Calvinist writing? Yet there are many non-Calvinists who appreciate the contributions of men like George Müller, Jonathan Edward's, John Piper, and even John MacArthur.

    Calvinists tend to keep blinders on when it comes to other interpretations of Scripture. They think that they alone have stumbled on the truth, that no non-Calvinist Christian in history ever seriously studied Isaiah 53.

    But when we say "non-Calvinist" we are mot speaking about Christians who hold the sane view.

    They may affirm Wesleyan Arminianism, Reformation Arminianism, Classic Anabaptist Theology, or any number of beliefs. These are not in a "camp", and they are not threatened by competing ideas.

    There are many good Calvinists, although perhaps not on this board. The difference is many in general will consider other views and weigh them against Scripture while on these types of forums you will find most simply defending their camp.
     
    #33 JonC, Mar 21, 2022
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I have had the same experience. At one time I was a Calvinist. The online company I kept (Calvinists) made me question the validity of the position, but Scripture itself forced me to abandon the view. I still have a lot in common with Calvinists, just not near enough to be one.
     
    #34 JonC, Mar 21, 2022
  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Only speaking for myself, I grew up in the free will world of holiness thinking with Tozer and crew. I was steeped and raised in doctrines that I found the Bible did not support. The world of legalism that either increased my pride or brought me to utter despair is a world that I cannot go back to. It would be like a dog returning to its own vomit. No thank you. I've been there. I know the undercurrent and the danger of man-centered theology.

    So, Jon, I personally find no value in digging around the garbage philosophies of free will thinking. I would warn you against such authors, but it seems you have drank deep from the kool-aid.
     
    #35 AustinC, Mar 21, 2022
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  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes....it is obvious
     
    #36 Iconoclast, Mar 21, 2022
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I also do not find value in digging around in men's theologies. That said, this does not mean that men like Dewight Moody, CS Lewis, and Tozier have nothing of benefit to offer.

    As you know, I believe in predestination (and reprobation). So your charge that I have drank the free-will "kool-aid" is kinda weird. This goes back to what @Reynolds and @Eternally Grateful were talking about and proves them correct.

    I understand ypu cannot go back to Tozer's doctrine. I couldn't go there either. Now I could not go back to Calvinism for the same reason - it would be as a dog returning to his own vomit.

    This is normal. When you find an error it is silly to return to that error. This dies not mean I cannot worship with Calvinists or with Free-will Baptists. Those who are truly saved are my family, and we remain united in Christ even as we are divided over theology.

    I can appreciate Tozier as a godly man God used for His purposes while at the same time find his neglect for his family and aspects of his theology the results of the man being human, finite, and capable of error.

    The problem with only reading the works of men who have a perfect theology is there are none in this lifetime. The problem with only reading those who say what you want to hear ("tickle your ears") as you become unable to discern truth from error. They tell you the ink blot is a bat and pretty soon you can't see it as an ink blot.
     
    #37 JonC, Mar 21, 2022
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  18. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    You can believe in both and still believe in Free Will. I am Calvinist and I believe in Free Will.
     
    #38 Reformed1689, Mar 21, 2022
  19. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    We know that is not true.
     
    #39 Reformed1689, Mar 21, 2022
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  20. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    Some people seem to think you can only be on or the other (unless your catholic)

    then wonder why we can;t have a normal conversation
     
    #40 Eternally Grateful, Mar 21, 2022
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