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Did a C or A say this?

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Mikey

Mikey

Active Member
JonC said:
One thing I have observed on this forum, @Reynolds , is that a sect of Calvinists ban together and argue as a group. If one member of the group makes an error the rest try to hide it. If one member opposes one of in their camp they attack. And ultimately they never really get to the heart of the issue.

At the same time there are Calvinists on this forum who carefully consider Scripture, who can look at opposing views for what they are rather than the characterization they want them to be. But they rarely get caught up in the debates here (they know it is a debate that cannot be won or lost).
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I think tribalism is a problem on all sides, unfortunately.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Mikey said:
I think tribalism is a problem on all sides, unfortunately.
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It is. Calvinism lends itself to be a greater issue simply because it is a more tight knit group (non-Calvinims is a much broader category).

Thankfully there are cooler minds on all sides as well. But most of the time they have enough common sence not to get involved in antics. :Wink
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Eternally Grateful said:
That is not free will.

I believe God draws us also. The difference is we have free will even when God draws us, to still reject or accept. That's why roman's 1 says no one has an excuse.. Because we not only Know God. we know because of our sin we are guilty and deserving of judgment.

Part of God drawing us to himself is to prove our guilt. which is why the law was given.

Saying a person could never chose to receive the gift of God is not free will.

In most calvinist discussions I have had, when I discuss free will. most calvin leaning people tell me I am wrong. and just trying to save myself which is not true,.
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In total free will, nobody gets saved. You realize this right? Free will means we choose what we desire.
 
Reynolds

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Another instance of him having to admit, in his round about way, that Calvinism is hard to reconcile to some passages.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Reynolds said:
He eludes to it here. I will find more links where he goes into more detail.

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Ok, maybe I missed it, but I don't even see where he eludes to it here...
Reynolds said:

Another instance of him having to admit, in his round about way, that Calvinism is hard to reconcile to some passages.
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Saying Calvinism is hard to reconcile is not the same as saying that some verses support arminianism....
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Eternally Grateful said:
No

You claim you know what they are.

I want to hear what YOU THINK I believe.

Are are you just going to run, because you are afraid you do not understand what I believe?
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What do you actually believe about the soteriology of God. I will give you an actual chance to be precise and clear on the subject.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Eternally Grateful said:
That is not free will.

I believe God draws us also. The difference is we have free will even when God draws us, to still reject or accept. That's why roman's 1 says no one has an excuse.. Because we not only Know God. we know because of our sin we are guilty and deserving of judgment.

Part of God drawing us to himself is to prove our guilt. which is why the law was given.

Saying a person could never chose to receive the gift of God is not free will.

In most calvinist discussions I have had, when I discuss free will. most calvin leaning people tell me I am wrong. and just trying to save myself which is not true,.
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The problem is that the Calvinists most active on this board cannot understand how God can be sovereign, how everything is ultimately predestined to transpire a certain way, yet men also have a freedom of the will.

To them, if you dare deny that God decreed them to salvation against their will (at the time of the decree) then you are saying you saved yourself.

That is just how "Cage Stage Calvinism" works. It shoukd be a dhort lived overzealous time for newly discovered doctrine, but some get trapped there for a lifetime. If you do not completely submit to their ideas then you hold the most extreme view opposite theirs and are an enemy to be defeated.

To quote James White -"they have more zeal than they have knowledge".
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
The problem is that the Calvinists most active on this board cannot understand how God can be sovereign, how everything is ultimately predestined to transpire a certain way, yet men also have a freedom of the will.

To them, if you dare deny that God decreed them to salvation against their will (at the time of the decree) then you are saying you saved yourself.

That is just how "Cage Stage Calvinism" works. If you do not completely submit to their ideas then you hold the most extreme view opposite theirs and are an enemy to be defeated.
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This post is just false. First, Jon doesn't understand Calvinists, at least not this one, second, he doesn't understand free will, third, he puts for the false charge of Cage Stage Calvinism. In short, he has no idea what he is talking about.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Reformed1689 said:
No, all men refers to both Jews and Greeks, not individuals.
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Where do you come up with these dumb ideas? Your calvinism has warped your mind.

Read the text of the bible without adding or taking away from it. Do you really think the Holy Spirit does not know what He wants to say.

Further to your comment are you a Jew or are you Greek because if you are not one or the other your toast, as in your doomed to hell because Christ Jesus did not call you. Do you see how off center your theology is?
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Where do you come up with these dumb ideas? Your calvinism has warped your mind.

Read the text of the bible without adding or taking away from it. Do you really think the Holy Spirit does not know what He wants to say.

Further to your comment are you a Jew or are you Greek because if you are not one or the other your toast, as in your doomed to hell because Christ Jesus did not call you. Do you see how off center your theology is?
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Context. Does John 12:32 Go Against The Doctrines of Grace?

And as for me, I am a gentile so I would fall in the Greek category.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Reformed1689 said:
Context. Does John 12:32 Go Against The Doctrines of Grace?

And as for me, I am a gentile so I would fall in the Greek category.
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Well since the DoG are just something that the calvinists hold onto it really does not matter to me. What is the DoG anyway?

So now we agree that Joh 12:32 means that Christ Jesus draws ALL to Himself. Now if you want to say that {draws G1670} means drag then you are jumping into the universalist camp. Not a good place to be.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Where do you come up with these dumb ideas? Your calvinism has warped your mind.

Read the text of the bible without adding or taking away from it. Do you really think the Holy Spirit does not know what He wants to say.

Further to your comment are you a Jew or are you Greek because if you are not one or the other your toast, as in your doomed to hell because Christ Jesus did not call you. Do you see how off center your theology is?
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Even non-reformed commentators state that this is talking about Jew/Gentile, not individuals.
 
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