Did a C or A say this?

[Reformed1689]

Well since the DoG are just something that the calvinists hold onto it really does not matter to me. What is the DoG anyway?

So now we agree that Joh 12:32 means that Christ Jesus draws ALL to Himself. Now if you want to say that {draws G1670} means drag then you are jumping into the universalist camp. Not a good place to be.

All does not mean all individuals, you obviously did not read my link. It is Jew/Gentile. You are ignoring context if you say otherwise.

 

[AustinC]

The problem is that the Calvinists most active on this board cannot understand how God can be sovereign, how everything is ultimately predestined to transpire a certain way, yet men also have a freedom of the will.

To them, if you dare deny that God decreed them to salvation against their will (at the time of the decree) then you are saying you saved yourself.

That is just how "Cage Stage Calvinism" works. It shoukd be a dhort lived overzealous time for newly discovered doctrine, but some get trapped there for a lifetime. If you do not completely submit to their ideas then you hold the most extreme view opposite theirs and are an enemy to be defeated.

To quote James White -"they have more zeal than they have knowledge".

It's really a difference of understanding in regard to free will.
Some think that any ability to choose is equal to free will. If that's the definition, then sure. But, that's not the definition I use.
I recognize that God tells us we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. (Slaves to Satan or Slaves to God) There is no freedom for human beings. The entire recording of freedom from Egypt to be held under God's Old Covenant is a foreshadowing of this truth. Freedom is not an option.

Therefore, humans can make choices within the confines of their slavery. What they cannot do is choose a new master all by themselves. They were born in sin, under its mastery. They cannot get free from this slaveholder. They cannot choose a new slaveholder. They can only live within that slavery and try to make the best of it that they can. Look out for self and try enjoy the time in figurative "Egypt." What they need is a great Redeemer who will set them free from "Pharaoh" and lead them to the Promised Land. That person must come, break the chains and then establish a New Covenant with them as they serve their new Redeemer. Under their new Redeemer there are choices that can be made, but once redeemed, the person who was Redeemed cannot unredeem themselves. That's not in the list of choices available.

So, free will, as in truly being free, does not exist. It is a figment of an ignorant imagination.

 

[Reformed1689]

So, free will, as in truly being free, does not exist. It is a figment of an ignorant imagination.

And humanistic philosophy.

 

[Silverhair]

Even non-reformed commentators state that this is talking about Jew/Gentile, not individuals.

Who do you think make up the Jews and Gentiles. But to be clear, when Christ Jesus says that he will call ALL to Himself. Do you think he is calling the words Jew & Gentile or do you think He is calling people that fit into those groups to Himself?

 

[JonC]

It's really a difference of understanding in regard to free will.
Some think that any ability to choose is equal to free will. If that's the definition, then sure. But, that's not the definition I use.
I recognize that God tells us we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. (Slaves to Satan or Slaves to God) There is no freedom for human beings. The entire recording of freedom from Egypt to be held under God's Old Covenant is a foreshadowing of this truth. Freedom is not an option.

Therefore, humans can make choices within the confines of their slavery. What they cannot do is choose a new master all by themselves. They were born in sin, under its mastery. They cannot get free from this slaveholder. They cannot choose a new slaveholder. They can only live within that slavery and try to make the best of it that they can. Look out for self and try enjoy the time in figurative "Egypt." What they need is a great Redeemer who will set them free from "Pharaoh" and lead them to the Promised Land. That person must come, break the chains and then establish a New Covenant with them as they serve their new Redeemer. Under their new Redeemer there are choices that can be made, but once redeemed, the person who was Redeemed cannot unredeem themselves. That's not in the list of choices available.

So, free will, as in truly being free, does not exist. It is a figment of an ignorant imagination.

But at the sane time Calvinists look at God as if He were just "the big man in the sky", with a will exactly like ours.

Doesn't matter, anyway. Your argument is against free-will theologians, not me.

You assume that my disagreement with Calvinism puts me in that category. You assume wrong. I believe everything is predestined.

 

[Reformed1689]

Who do you think make up the Jews and Gentiles. But to be clear, when Christ Jesus says that he will call ALL to Himself. Do you think he is calling the words Jew & Gentile or do you think He is calling people that fit into those groups to Himself?

This is not difficult. He is saying salvation is not for Jews alone. He is not addressing individuals in this passage.

 

[Reformed1689]

But at the sane time Calvinists look at God as if He were just "the big man in the sky", with a will exactly like ours.

Doesn't matter, anyway. Your argument is against free-will theologians, not me.

You assume that my disagreement with Calvinism puts me in that category. You assume wrong.

I honestly don't think you know what you believe and just spout off anything that comes to mind that will rile people up.

 

[Silverhair]

All does not mean all individuals, you obviously did not read my link. It is Jew/Gentile. You are ignoring context if you say otherwise.

Really then you do not understand logic. Who do you think get saved? individuals or people groups.

 

[Reformed1689]

Really then you do not understand logic. Who do you think get saved? individuals or people groups.

That literally has nothing to do with John 12:32

 

[Silverhair]

This is not difficult. He is saying salvation is not for Jews alone. He is not addressing individuals in this passage.

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

You keep saying context but you seem to ignore context. Do you not think that Christ Jesus would know what "WORLD" means or for that matter "ALL".

You are clouding your mind with calvinist thought and ignoring the clear text so as to make it work with your theology.

 

[Silverhair]

That literally has nothing to do with John 12:32

Dr Bob may have been wrong in his comment, sometimes it is just hardheartedness that is the problem. You have closed your heart and mind to the truth of the bible.

 

[Reformed1689]

Dr Bob may have been wrong in his comment, sometimes it is just hardheartedness that is the problem. You have closed your heart and mind to the truth of the bible.

On the contrary, I actually believe the Bible.

 

[AustinC]

But at the sane time Calvinists look at God as if He were just "the big man in the sky", with a will exactly like ours.

Doesn't matter, anyway. Your argument is against free-will theologians, not me.

You assume that my disagreement with Calvinism puts me in that category. You assume wrong. I believe everything is predestined.

I bolded your false statement.

If God had a will exactly like mine, I would be the richest man in the world who ran everything and you would be my servant. Now, we all know that isn't happening, so your statement is just silly talk.

Jon, I assume you are a lone wolf who has no persons who either know what it is you actually believe and if they did, they wouldn't agree with you anyway. I have not met anyone more vague and shifty than you are here at the BB.

 

[Reformed1689]

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

You keep saying context but you seem to ignore context. Do you not think that Christ Jesus would know what "WORLD" means or for that matter "ALL".

You are clouding your mind with calvinist thought and ignoring the clear text so as to make it work with your theology.

No, you are the one isolating verses, I'm looking at the whole passage. It is clear, and commentators on both sides of the issue agree, this is talking about Jews and Gentiles, not individuals.

 

[Silverhair]

On the contrary, I actually believe the Bible.

Your words on here do not indicate that, as you try to twist scripture to fit your theological view instead of letting the bible determine your theological view.

 

[Silverhair]

No, you are the one isolating verses, I'm looking at the whole passage. It is clear, and commentators on both sides of the issue agree, this is talking about Jews and Gentiles, not individuals.

What do you think Jews & Gentiles are made up of? Your lack of understanding of basic logic is troubling. Then again perhaps that explains why you are a calvinist.

 

[Reformed1689]

What do you think Jews & Gentiles are made up of? Your lack of understanding of basic logic is troubling. Then again perhaps that explains why you are a calvinist.

It does not matter who they are made up of.

 

[Reformed1689]

Your words on here do not indicate that, as you try to twist scripture to fit your theological view instead of letting the bible determine your theological view.

That was what I did before accepting reformed positions. I'm not that blind or stubborn anymore.

 

[JonC]

I bolded your false statement.

If God had a will exactly like mine, I would be the richest man in the world who ran everything and you would be my servant. Now, we all know that isn't happening, so your statement is just silly talk.

Jon, I assume you are a lone wolf who has no persons who either know what it is you actually believe and if they did, they wouldn't agree with you anyway. I have not met anyone more vague and shifty than you are here at the BB.

You miss my point. I am not saying that we will the same thing or you think man and God have the same power.

I am saying that your treatment of the divine will is exactly like you treat man's will in kind. The picture you paint of God's will is the same picture you paint of man's will, only God prevails.

As far as me being a "lone wolf", you said the same thing when I voiced a view that Christians throughout history have voiced. Now I have made observations members like @Reynolds , @Eternally Grateful , and @Silverhair have also made. Yet somehow we are "lone wolves" and you a part of the Cslvinistic collective mind....the Reformed Borg???

God forbid one of you actually think on your own.

This is the point I was trying to make about campish Calvinists. You get a lump of them spewing insults, character assassination, and false accusations.

 

[Reformed1689]

You miss my point. I am not saying that we will the same thing ot you think man and God have the same power.

I am saying that your treatment of the divine will is exactly like you treat man's will in kind. The picture you paint of God's will is the same picture you paint of man's will, only God prevails.

As far as me being a "lone wolf", you said the same thing when I voiced a view that Christians throughout history have voiced. Now I have made observations members like @Reynolds , @Eternally Grateful , and @Silverhair have also made. Yet somehow we are "lone wolves" and you a part of the Cslvinistic collective mind....the Reformed Borg???

God forbid one of you actually think on your own.

This is the point I was trying to make about campish Calvinists. You get a lump of them spewing insults, character assassination, and false accusations.

Kinda like you in this post?