Did Adam die spiritually when he sinned?

[JonC]

Adam was born perfect. He had no sin. so why did he suffer a penalty of death?

Because Adam transgressed God's command.

Adam was created (not born) "upright" (I suppose you could say "perfect" as a human being). But Adam transgressed the law God had given him. He sinned because his mind was set on the desires of the flesh (the forbidden fruit was pleasing to the eyes and desirable to gain knowledge and be one like God in that aspect).

The wages of sin is death.

 

[JonC]

The death is spiritual death..

We who WERE DEAD in trespasses and sin, he has made us alive in Christ

Physical death is just a byproduct of the fall..

No, not per Scripture. God pronounced the curse - the death was returning to "dust". That is physical.

Nobody dies spiritually. Being spiritually dead refers to the natural state of man ("flesh", as Adam was created "a living soul").

Do you not at least find it interesting that the idea Genesis was referring to Adam dying spiritually is foreign to the ore-Christian Hebrew religion and the first centuries of the Christian religion? Whether correct or incorrect, that should at least tell us the view Adam died spiritually is not the normal reading of Scripture. And that should at least encourage us to ask why we normally read it that way.

 

[Dave G]

The question is why Christians centuries after Christ and over two thousand years of having the Hebrew Scriptures decided that Adam died spiritually when he ate the fruit.

Romans 5:12-14,

and

" And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." ( Genesis 2:16 ).

Adam didn't die, physically, the day he ate the fruit...
He "died" ( was alienated from God ) that day. His sin placed a relational chasm between him and the Lord.

In other words, spiritual death is relational, and sin distanced ourselves, in our hearts and minds, from God;
That's what spiritual death is, Jon, to become alienated from the Lord in our affections and will.

Mankind "died" in Adam ( again, Romans 5:12-14 )...
Those who are saved are made "alive" in Christ ( reconciled to God, spiritually ).

 

[JonC]

Romans 5:12-14,

and

" And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." ( Genesis 2:16 ).

Adam didn't die, physically, the day he ate the fruit...
He "died" ( was alienated from God ) that day. His sin placed a relational chasm between him and the Lord.

In other words, spiritual death is relational, and sin distanced ourselves, in our hearts and minds, from God;
That's what spiritual death is, Jon, to become alienated from the Lord in our affections and will.

Mankind "died" in Adam ( again, Romans 5:12-14 )...
Those who are saved are made "alive" in Christ ( reconciled to God, spiritually ).

I am not sure where you get the idea that Adam died on the day he ate of the fruit. That is not what is recorded in the Hebrew text, and that is not what is recorded in the English text

That said, there is absolutely no reason (other than Catholic tradition) to believe Adam died spiritually. That idea is contrary to what the Bible tells us of spiritual life and the nature of man.

I am also not sure where you get the relational idea of death.

Adam was cast out of the Garden. But he was not created in the Garden. Also, Scripture tells us that Cain was cast out of God's presence (which Cain said was more than he could bear) for killing Able.

Do you believe Adam was created spiritually dead, became spiritually alive when God put him in the Garden, and then spiritually died?

What about Cain? He was not in the Garden yet he was cast from God's presence after he killed Able.


When exactly do you believe Adam was "born of the Spirit"?

 

[Dave G]

I am not sure where you get the idea that Adam died on the day he ate of the fruit. That is not what is recorded in the Hebrew text, and that is not what is recorded in the English text

I believe I just showed you.

That said, there is absolutely no reason (other than Catholic tradition) to believe Adam died spiritually.

I get my understanding of it directly through reading and believing God's word, Jon.

That idea is contrary to what the Bible tells us of spiritual life and the nature of man.

Spiritual life is to know God, personally, and to be connected to Him via His Spirit.
Spiritual death is the opposite....that much I can plainly see from God's word.

 

[Dave G]

I am also not sure where you get the relational idea of death.

Straight out of the Bible...
Ephesians 4, Romans 1, Romans 3, Psalms 10, Psalms 14, many other places where the Lord speaks of man's attitude towards Him.

Do you believe Adam was created spiritually dead, became spiritually alive when God put him in the Garden, and then spiritually died?

No. I believe that Adam was created spiritually alive ( knowing God, personally ) and then "died" when he disobeyed God and sin hardened his heart towards Him.

What about Cain? He was not in the Garden yet he was cast from God's presence after he killed Able.

Cain was "of the wicked one" ( 1 John 3:12 )...
He was "dead" from day one ( Psalms 58:3 ).

What's more, all of humanity, from the time of Adam, are "dead" from day one.

When exactly do you believe Adam was "born of the Spirit"?

I don't see anywhere in the Scriptures where Adam was ever born of the Spirit.
Further, someone who is born of the Spirit, cannot ever die, spiritually:

" Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? ( John 11:25 ). <--- "Die" here is not speaking with respect to physical death, it is referring to spiritual death and life. Believers, for example, have died, physically, for centuries...

But they will never die, spiritually.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I think it is an error to ignore the unique status of Adam. Luke 3:38. '.....The son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.' Man is the apex of God's creation. Before the creation of Adam, God pronounced His world to be 'good' (Genesis 1:25); after his creation, God pronounced it 'very good' (Genesis 1:31). Man's commission was to have 'dominion' over all of creation.(Genesis 1:28). Although the man was placed in the Garden, it was not intended for him to stay there. He was called to 'fill the earth and subdue it.' He was made in the 'image' and 'likeness' of God (Genesis 1:26). The two words appear to be synonyms.

It appears that God was accustomed to walk in the Garden, and presumably to have fellowship with the first couple (Genesis 3:8). Also we read that, '... They were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed' (Genesis 2:25). Shame only came in after the fell into sin (Genesis 3:7). I take this to mean that the first couple had no covering for their sin; there was no means of expiation. But that did not matter since there was no sin.

For these reasons it seems to me quite wrong to suppose that Adam was born 'dead in trespasses and sins' like his progeny (Ephesians 2:1). On the contrary, we are told that '... God made man upright' (Ecclesiastes 7:29), and the context of the verse indicates that it means more than that God made man to walk on two legs (which of course He did).

Adam was also made immortal. God told him, "....... In the day that you eat of it [the forbidden fruit] you shall surely die' [literally, 'dying, you shall die]." Surely it is ridiculous to suppose that God might have added, "and if you don't eat it, you're still going to die." What sort of prohibition would that have been?

If this is agreed, perhaps we might move on to consider what happened at the Fall.

 

[37818]

Adam was also made immortal.

The word of God teaches no such thing.

 

[tyndale1946]

It is in His word:

Romans 1:18-32.
Romans 3:9-18.
Romans 5:12-14.

I'm not sure how you missed it, Jon.

I don't either but, I won't beat around the bush, you want to see a picture of spiritual death?... As they say a picture is worth a thousand words!

Luke 16: 19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Now tell me Jon this man did not have a physical body, so he must be spiritually dead consumed in a flame of everlasting torment... The spiritually alive go to Heaven... Where do the spiritually dead go?... Adam may have been spiritually dead but he didn't stay that way... Brother Glen

Genesis 2: 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

There has got to be more to it than physical death because the man was not just a natural man he had communion with God... So he had a physical as well as a spiritual connection with God... God didn't break the connection, Adam did... And the remedy was ready... And the Lord sent the second Adam to restore the first one and all that belong to the Lord by his Salvation and grace... So Jon your spiritually inability didn't put us there our spiritual depravity did... Brother Glen

 

[JonC]

I believe I just showed you.

I get my understanding of it directly through reading and believing God's word, Jon.

Spiritual life is to know God, personally, and to be connected to Him via His Spirit.
Spiritual death is the opposite....that much I can plainly see from God's word.

I agree with what you see in God's Word about spiritual life and spiritual death.

Our disagreement is that I do not believe spiritual life is a temporary thing. Had Adam ate of the Tree of Life then I would agree he had that life. But just going by Scripture, Adam did not have spiritual life apart from Christ. Jesus IS the Life. It is Him in us. It is not temporary because Christ is not temporary. He gives life everlasting.

 

[JonC]

I don't either but, I won't beat around the bush, you want to see a picture of spiritual death?... As they say a picture is worth a thousand words!

Luke 16: 19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Now tell me Jon this man did not have a physical body, so he must be spiritually dead consumed in a flame of everlasting torment... The spiritually alive go to Heaven... Where do the spiritually dead go?... Adam may have been spiritually dead but he didn't stay that way... Brother Glen

Genesis 2: 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

There has got to be more to it than physical death because the man was not just a natural man he had communion with God... So he had a physical as well as a spiritual connection with God... God didn't break the connection, Adam did... And the remedy was ready... And the Lord sent the second Adam to restore the first one and all that belong to the Lord by his Salvation and grace... So Jon your spiritually inability didn't put us there our spiritual depravity did... Brother Glen

Nobody missed the difference between spiritual life and death.

Scripture has to be our standard, not ideas developed by the Catholic Church that stand in opposition to the Hebrew religion and early Christianity.

God spoke to Cain. God cast Cain out from His presence after Cain killed Able.

Spiritual life is not temporary.

More importantly, however, Scripture does not present Adam as dying spiritually.

What Scripture does present is simple - Adam was returned to the place from which he was created (outside of the Garden) and he would work the land until he returned to the dust from which he was created.

It is interesting just how deep the Catholic Church has affected contemporary Christian doctrine, and just how strong a hold tradition has when competing with God's Word.

 

[JonC]

Straight out of the Bible...
Ephesians 4, Romans 1, Romans 3, Psalms 10, Psalms 14, many other places where the Lord speaks of man's attitude towards Him.

No. I believe that Adam was created spiritually alive ( knowing God, personally ) and then "died" when he disobeyed God and sin hardened his heart towards Him.

Cain was "of the wicked one" ( 1 John 3:12 )...
He was "dead" from day one ( Psalms 58:3 ).

What's more, all of humanity, from the time of Adam, are "dead" from day one.

I don't see anywhere in the Scriptures where Adam was ever born of the Spirit.
Further, someone who is born of the Spirit, cannot ever die, spiritually:

" Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? ( John 11:25 ). <--- "Die" here is not speaking with respect to physical death, it is referring to spiritual death and life. Believers, for example, have died, physically, for centuries...

But they will never die, spiritually.

The problem is that God's Word does not present Adam as dying spiritually. And,while sin created a barrier (death to be followed by Judgment) the type of separation you indicate is also foreign to Scripture.

Cain and Abel had a relationship with God. In fact, God tells us that Cain was cast from His presence after he killed Able.

And God cared for Adam (and communicated to Adam) after Adam sinned.

And - most importantly - God tells us what happened because of Adam's sin (Adam was returned to where he was created - Outside of the Garden - so that he would not eat of the Tree of Life, and Adam would labor to work the land until he returned to dust).

 

[tyndale1946]

Nobody missed the difference between spiritual life and death.

Scripture has to be our standard, not ideas developed by the Catholic Church that stand in opposition to the Hebrew religion and early Christianity.

God spoke to Cain. God cast Cain out from His presence after Cain killed Able.

Spiritual life is not temporary.

More importantly, however, Scripture does not present Adam as dying spiritually.

What Scripture does present is simple - Adam was returned to the place from which he was created (outside of the Garden) and he would work the land until he returned to the dust from which he was created.

It is interesting just how deep the Catholic Church has affected contemporary Christian doctrine, and just how strong a hold tradition has when competing with God's Word.

Well I don't believe that it is a Catholic doctrine but that is the first time I heard it... But before me saying weather it is or not let me check with one who had been in the RCC for I believe he said 35 years who is now of a Primitive Baptist belief... EWF?... What say you Brother?... Brother Glen

 

[JonC]

The issue here is important (not just an issue of opinion).

In His Word God says that due to Adam's sin he would labor to harvest the land and he would die (return to the dust from which he was created).

Because Adam's eyes had been opened to knowing good and evil, because Adam had become like God knowing good and evil, he was cast out of the Garden to prevent him from eating of the Tree of Life.

This is key to understanding the Biblical narrative. Physical death entered the world. It is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment. Christ's work freed men from the bondage of sin and death while delivering them from the Judgment to come (men were reborn).

BUT drawing on Catholic mythology men have added to Scripture what is not there, and what was absent the Hebrew religion and early Christian faith - that is Adam dying spiritually.

 

[JonC]

Well I don't believe that it is a Catholic doctrine but that is the first time I heard it... But before me saying weather it is or not let me check with one who had been in the RCC for I believe he said 35 years who is now of a Primitive Baptist belief... EWF?... What say you Brother?... Brother Glen

It isn't necessary that believe where the idea came from. The important part is that it did not come from the Bible.

In the Bible there is flesh and spirit. That which is of the Spirit is spirit. That which is of the flesh is flesh. All flesh will pass away. This is not said of the Spirit.

Spiritual life IS life in Christ. Spiritual Life is not temporary.

But as soon as we are born, and as soon as Adam sinned, we are subject to physical death (we are born dying).

I challenge you to re-read Scripture, even just as an experiment, without altering or adding any ideas to the text. Just see where it takes you. Then let's revisit the subject.

 

[37818]

No one is out of God's presence.
Jesus on the cross bearing our sin according to Psalms 22:1 by being forsaken.
Revelation 14:10-11, ". . . shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, . . ."
Noting God's Holy Angels and His Lamb also represent Him even as Jesus Christ is our sole mediator. 1 Timothy 2:5 and ,John 14:6.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Because Adam transgressed God's command.

Adam was created (not born) "upright" (I suppose you could say "perfect" as a human being). But Adam transgressed the law God had given him. He sinned because his mind was set on the desires of the flesh (the forbidden fruit was pleasing to the eyes and desirable to gain knowledge and be one like God in that aspect).

The wages of sin is death.

Yes,

So the moment he sinned, as God promised. He died (spiritually)

Physical death is a product of sin, but not the penalty of sin.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No, not per Scripture. God pronounced the curse - the death was returning to "dust". That is physical.

Nobody dies spiritually. Being spiritually dead refers to the natural state of man ("flesh", as Adam was created "a living soul").

Do you not at least find it interesting that the idea Genesis was referring to Adam dying spiritually is foreign to the ore-Christian Hebrew religion and the first centuries of the Christian religion? Whether correct or incorrect, that should at least tell us the view Adam died spiritually is not the normal reading of Scripture. And that should at least encourage us to ask why we normally read it that way.

No, if this was true, everyone who died physically would pay for their own sin, and would be allowed into heaven. We also know 2 who never died. And we know many in the last days will nto suffer death but be ressurected.

I was dead in sin, that was the penalty. I must be made alive, that is the gift.

Since spiritual rebirth is the gift. Spiritual death is the curse.

 

[JonC]

Yes,

So the moment he sinned, as God promised. He died (spiritually)

Physical death is a product of sin, but not the penalty of sin.

But that is not what the Bible says. According to the Bible the result of Adam's sin was that he would have to work the land which was cursed because of him and die a physical death (return to dust). So that he would not eat of the Tree of Life he was cast from the Garden.

I think the difference is how we hold Scripture. If we believe doctrine is in what is written in God's Word then we cannot believe this idea of spiritually dying. But if we believe doctrine should be developed over time through discussions and then supported by the Bible then it is possible to believe Adam died spiritually.

 

[JonC]

No, if this was true, everyone who died physically would pay for their own sin, and would be allowed into heaven. We also know 2 who never died. And we know many in the last days will nto suffer death but be ressurected.

I was dead in sin, that was the penalty. I must be made alive, that is the gift.

Since spiritual rebirth is the gift. Spiritual death is the curse.

Everybody does suffer the wages of their own sin. Christians are not saved from death (from the wages of sin). Instead even though we die so shall we live. What we escape is the wrath to come (we are not judged as the wicked).

God said in Genesis that physical death is the curse (returning to dust). Physical death is still the wages of sin, but it has no "sting" as we have life in Christ Jesus. We were saved from the bondage of sin and death - not from experiencing physical death and struggling with sin but that we are no longer under its rule.