Did Adam die spiritually when he sinned?

[Eternally Grateful]

We are by nature dead spiritually.

The only thing I'm discussing here, though, is the fact that the idea Adam spiritually died is an anti-biblical tradition many hold without even realizing how that myth alters Scripture.

But your wrong

Adam was spiritually alive, He walked with God., they had a relationship/ They were in union.

When adam sinned. That relationship, that unity they had, that walk with God was killed. It was destroyed. There was a barrier between Adam and God and that barrier had to be removed..

 

[MrW]

Dave G: Genesis 2:7 is what I base it on. The breath that God breathed into. Adam became his spirit, and the union of his spirit with his body gave rise to the soul.

 

[JonC]

Spiritual death is not foreign.

We are dead/ and must be born again, That is a scriptural content.

It is not physical death, it is spiritual

Spiritual death just separation between us and God, that spiritual separation must be restored. That is what it mean to be born again, Regenerated. made alive etc..

That spiritual separation or barrier is removed/

Spiritual death is not foreign to Scripture, I absolutely agree.

What IS foreign to Scripture is spiritually dying . This is at least the second time you have changed the topic to a straw man argument (I am sure unintentionally each time).

According to the Bible spiritual life is not temporary (it is not as the physical which passes away).

 

[JonC]

But your wrong

Adam was spiritually alive, He walked with God., they had a relationship/ They were in union.

When adam sinned. That relationship, that unity they had, that walk with God was killed. It was destroyed. There was a barrier between Adam and God and that barrier had to be removed..

But this idea that Adam had spiritual life and lost it is unbiblical. Cain enjoyed being in the presence of God until he killed Able (and God cast him from His presence, a fate Cain said was too much).

Adam was cast from the Garden but my Bible says this was so that he would not eat of the Tree of Life.

And my Bible says that Adam was returned to living outside the Garden (and this is where he was created).

You seem to accept an amalgamation of God's Word and man's tradition as Scripture. I suggest it is better to choose one or the other.

 

[JD731]

Only those two? Elisha must have been doubly spiritually alive by your criteria because he had a double portion of the spirit that was in Elijah.

How are Elijah and Elisha in the context of the subject of the op? How did that work. Elisha had a body in which was his soul and two Holy Spirits? Is that the take away that God intends by including this information about these two men?
Think man. God has given us an understanding of himself and his ways and there is a proper context that must be acknowledged.

 

[MrW]

Someone contended only two people in the OT had spiritual life. I showed there was at least a third.

 

[JonC]

Someone contended only two people in the OT had spiritual life. I showed there was at least a third.

Is there a verse that says Elijah and Elisha had spiritual life? I ask because if so then they did not need a Savior to "become a Life giving Spirit" after He died in a Roman Cross. (My personal belief is that these two may be the two martyrs).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Spiritual death is not foreign to Scripture, I absolutely agree.

What IS foreign to Scripture is spiritually dying . This is at least the second time you have changed the topic to a straw man argument (I am sure unintentionally each time).

According to the Bible spiritual life is not temporary (it is not as the physical which passes away).

Adam was created spiritually and physically alive to God

The moment he sinned, He died spiritually, he died physically 900 years later

You want to call it a strawman, feel free. But the facts are the facts. Whether you like it or not.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

But this idea that Adam had spiritual life and lost it is unbiblical. Cain enjoyed being in the presence of God until he killed Able (and God cast him from His presence, a fate Cain said was too much).

Adam was cast from the Garden but my Bible says this was so that he would not eat of the Tree of Life.

And my Bible says that Adam was returned to living outside the Garden (and this is where he was created).

You seem to accept an amalgamation of God's Word and man's tradition as Scripture. I suggest it is better to choose one or the other.

You don’t get it. And I seem to be unable to explain to you in. Way you can understand

Adam died the moment he sinned, God said so.

I will place my trust in what God said

 

[kyredneck]

Savior to "become a Life giving Spirit" after He died in a Roman Cross.

???

8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever. Heb 13 [1 Peter 1:11]

 

[JonC]

Adam was created spiritually and physically alive to God

The moment he sinned, He died spiritually, he died physically 900 years later

You want to call it a strawman, feel free. But the facts are the facts. Whether you like it or not.

No, the straw man was you arguing against the idea there was no spiritual death.

That said, there are absolutely no passages that affirm your stated opinion above. It is just a tradition that arose out of Catholic doctrine. It is foreign to the Hebrew religion, foreign to the first centuries of Christianity and foreign to Scripture.

I mentioned the straw man because the passages you have posted deal with man being spiritually dead, NOT with Adam dying spiritually, spiritual life being temporary, or a spiritual life apart from Christ.

 

[JonC]

You don’t get it. And I seem to be unable to explain to you in. Way you can understand

Adam died the moment he sinned, God said so.

I will place my trust in what God said

I understand what you are saying. I once held the same opinion.

I don't think you understand what I am saying. While your tradition makes sense it is foreign to Scripture.

Mormon theology makes sense, and I understand it. But it is foreign to Scripture.

The problem with holding these Christian "myths" is that they obscure what is actually written in God"s Word.

I'm not saying you are not a believer (like a Mormon) for clinging to that idea, but it is impossible that you understand the impact of sin and the Cross while holding to Christian mythology because that tradition obscures and replaces God's Word.

 

[JonC]

???

8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever. Heb 13 [1 Peter 1:11]

I think the passage is speaking of a place in time (like the Word became flesh, Christ died, Christ was raised to glory, ect.).

1 Corinthians 15:45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

 

[kyredneck]

I think the passage is speaking of a place in time (like the Word became flesh, Christ died, Christ was raised to glory, ect.).

I think Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever.

1 Corinthians 15:45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

'Became' has been added.

Young's Literal Translation
so also it hath been written, 'The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,

New International Version
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

New Living Translation
The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.” But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit.

Berean Standard Bible
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.

New American Standard Bible
So also it is written: “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING PERSON.” The last Adam was a life-giving spirit.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Thus also it is written: “Adam the first man was a living soul; the last Adam - The Life Giver Spirit.

Contemporary English Version
The first man was named Adam, and the Scriptures tell us that he was a living person. But Jesus, who may be called the last Adam, is a life-giving spirit.

Good News Translation
For the scripture says, "The first man, Adam, was created a living being"; but the last Adam is the life-giving Spirit.

Literal Standard Version
so also it has been written: “The first man Adam became a living creature,” the last Adam [is] for a life-giving spirit,

Majority Standard Bible
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.

New American Bible
So, too, it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living being,” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.

Weymouth New Testament
In the same way also it is written, "The first man Adam became a living animal"; the last Adam is a life-giving Spirit.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I understand what you are saying. I once held the same opinion.

I don't think you understand what I am saying. While your tradition makes sense it is foreign to Scripture.

Mormon theology makes sense, and I understand it. But it is foreign to Scripture.

The problem with holding these Christian "myths" is that they obscure what is actually written in God"s Word.

I'm not saying you are not a believer (like a Mormon) for clinging to that idea, but it is impossible that you understand the impact of sin and the Cross while holding to Christian mythology because that tradition obscures and replaces God's Word.

good day/

Scripture backs me up. Just because you can not see it does not make it so.

In your view you have adam dead when he was created, that is just not so.

 

[JD731]

Someone contended only two people in the OT had spiritual life. I showed there was at least a third.

No, what you did is to search for a verse with the word spirit in it and when you found one you used it without attempting to determine if it is proper to apply it to your already steadfast mindset on the subject. This is a dishonest way to approach the scriptures. One must believe the words and allow them to correct bad doctrine. If you fail in that enterprise, you are stymied and can advance no further in your quest for truth.

 

[MrW]

No, what you did is to search for a verse with the word spirit in it and when you found one you used it without attempting to determine if it is proper to apply it to your already steadfast mindset on the subject. This is a dishonest way to approach the scriptures. One must believe the words and allow them to correct bad doctrine. If you fail in that enterprise, you are stymied and can advance no further in your quest for truth.

I didn't search for anything. I have known since a child that Elisha had a double portion of the spirit that was on Elijah.

My point was there were more than two people in the OT that had God's Spirit in them, so pretending there were only two is just not true.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

On another thread this became a topic of discussion.

God created man and then planted a garden towards the East, in Eden. God put man in this garden.

Genesis 2:16–17 The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Adam disobeyed God, transgressing that command.

Scripture tells us what occurred to Adam because of this transgression:

Genesis 3:17–19 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’; Cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face you will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Scripture tells us what happened to Adam as well:

Genesis 3:22–23 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.

So where does the idea, since it is not in the Bible and contradicts passages about spiritual life, come from that Adam was created spiritually alive and died spiritually?

You are on the right track.
Accept the text.
"DEATH" means to, well, die...
and that's what God said would happen to Adam if he ate said fruit.

Dying "Spiritually" is a problematic concept. All manner of Theological propositions are proposed because of insisting that this idea needs to be fleshed out.


Assuming humans are inherently "Spiritual" beings now inhabiting a body......then, "Spiritual" death is meaningful.
"Spiritual" is (IMO) simply a term to justify non-sensical statements that don't stand up to scrutiny.
One can always say that my Theological statements are "Spiritually" true. Even if everything I'm arguing is nonsense:

Adam was made from the Dust of the ground....not some ephemeral "Spiritual" matter.
God is fundamentally a "Spiritual" being.
Adam is not. Never was, never will be.

Although God himself is Spirit.......he created a material world:

God does not consider the "material" or physical to be somehow "lesser" than the spiritual.
He is Spirit: but he made the crowning achievement of his creation physical and material. It was a physical and material Universe he created, and a physical and material "image-bearer" he put in charge of it:

God wanted his image-bearer to rule his material world rightly.
B.T.W: to be an "image-bearer" is akin to being the "ambassador". Put differently, Adam holds the kings seal or "image"....
He has the authority to rule over his creation in God's name..........because he has the "image" (like a signet ring).

When, God's (who is spirit by nature) "image-bearer" (ambassador) failed to take care of his material world, he sentenced him to death.

God is by nature immortal.

Adam is not.

Adam needed access to the "tree of life" in order to live forever.
Genesis clearly tells us that God (after Adam's sin) did not want him to have access to the tree of life...
Otherwise:............. he might eat and LIVE FOREVER. So, he placed guardian Cherubs there to prevent his return to the garden.

God is telling Adam that when "in the day thou eatest, thou shalt surely die" is simple prolepis:

And that manner of speaking is common throughout the Hebrew Bible.

1Ki 2:37
For it shall be, that on the day thou goest out, and passest over the brook Kidron, thou shalt know for certain that thou shalt surely die: thy blood shall be upon thine own head.

1Ki 2:42
And the king sent and called for Shimei, and said unto him, Did I not make thee to swear by the LORD, and protested unto thee, saying, Know for a certain, on the day thou goest out, and walkest abroad any whither, that thou shalt surely die? and thou saidst unto me, The word that I have heard is good.

When Adam ate of the tree: God (who is immortal and Spiritual by nature) condemned him image-bearer Adam (who is material and physical by nature) to die.....

That is the teaching of the Hebrew Bible. That is Hebrew thought.

Ancillary questions are brought up by Greco-Roman paganism.

Paganism asserts that humans are not material beings, but "Spiritual" beings.
Paganism asserts that immortality is the default state of humans. We live forever, because we are inherently "Spiritual" and not physical beingsl

Christianity can only be understood given the Hebrew world-view:
God (who is spirit) became a man (who is flesh) in Jesus Christ.

Calvinism is based upon pagan assumptions about the nature of God, man, and Christ.

The Bible does not speak of Adam's death as a "SPIRITUAL" death....

It meant God was going to kill him.
Christ was killed in Adam's place.
Amen for that!

 

[Dave G]

@JonC :
On another read-through I saw this, and decided to focus on it:

Since the language does not declare that Adam would die on the day he ate of the fruit

I'm sorry Jon, but I have to disagree.
The language does indeed say this very thing.

I'll post it again so we can all see it:

" And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." ( Genesis 2:15-17 ).

"In the day thou eatest...thou shalt surely die."

My question is, was Adam created immortal ( as I once believed and now do not, since Genesis 3:22 puts that to rest, at least in my mind ) and later began to die the day he disobeyed the Lord...
Or was Adam created with a spiritual relationship with God ( Adam "knew" God, spiritually and walked and talked with Him in the Garden, similar to Enoch walking with God in Genesis 5:22 ) and his sin not only broke that fellowship with God, the Lord did not decide to have mercy on him and restore that union through the new birth as He did for Enoch.

I believe the latter.

 

[Dave G]

Again, Romans 1:18-32 and many other places tells me what happened to us, as a race...
Romans 3, Ephesians 4, Psalms 10, Psalms 14 and many others tell me the symptoms of this "death" and what it looks like;
While other places tell me the symptoms ( or evidences ) of the new life bestowed upon those who have believed on His Son.

Jon, he did die.
His death ( spiritual alienation from the Lord ), on the very day that he disobeyed God, was caused by Adam and came about in exactly the way the Lord foretold it.

I'm sorry that you cannot seem to see it, but there's more than enough there for me to see it plainly.

Since Adam was not immortal, and since he did not die that very day ( physically ), then the only other option is that he died spiritually.
My friend, that "death" is indeed described in detail in other parts of God's word...
Only it seems that you're not seeing it for some reason.

That said, I will take my leave of this thread and make it my last post.
We will simply have to agree to disagree.


May God bless you.