Did Adam die spiritually when he sinned?

[MrW]

Adam died “in the day”. First spiritually, then physically. Creation is for seven “days”—man rules for six days, Christ for one day—the sabbath; then comes the eternal state.

Christ came to Earth early on the fifth day, thus Hebrews is correct that God has spoken to us by His Son “in these last days”.

 

[JonC]

He did die

he was spiritually seperated from God. and like all of us, Needed Gods grace to be made alive again.

Again, you are offering OPINIONS to add to the Bible.

But what you offer is NOT what the Bible says.

And in regards to Spiritual Life, your opinions are contrary to Scripture.

The issue here is that you are asking people to believe your opinions as if they were God's Word. But that are not.

There is a reason the Hebrew people NEVER ONCE read Genesis to indicate his death was anything but physical.

There is a reason the early Christians NEVER ONCE read Genesis to indicate his death was anything but physical.

I get that it is popular to believe the Jews and early Christians were less intelligent people. I just reject that idea. They listened to the prophets, to Jesus, and to the Apostles. Sure, we have had centuries of various theological traditions, BUT it should all go back to God and His Word.

 

[Silverhair]

Again, you are offering OPINIONS to add to the Bible.

But what you offer is NOT what the Bible says.

And in regards to Spiritual Life, your opinions are contrary to Scripture.

The issue here is that you are asking people to believe your opinions as if they were God's Word. But that are not.

There is a reason the Hebrew people NEVER ONCE read Genesis to indicate his death was anything but physical.

There is a reason the early Christians NEVER ONCE read Genesis to indicate his death was anything but physical.

I get that it is popular to believe the Jews and early Christians were less intelligent people. I just reject that idea. They listened to the prophets, to Jesus, and to the Apostles. Sure, we have had centuries of various theological traditions, BUT it should all go back to God and His Word.

Just couple of things to say here. On what basis do you make that claim that neither the Jews or Christians said anything re the spiritual death of Adam or anyone? That they did not mention it in the bible text?

If you say well it is not in the bible so that settles it, OK. With that in mind how do we know there is a Trinity or for that matter that God is sovereign? Were not told that in the bible in clear text are we. We have to draw those logical conclusions from the information that we find in scripture and rightly so.

So when we say that Adam died spiritually we draw that from the information that we find in scripture. If we are made alive, spiritually, when we are in Christ and this means we have a close relationship to God, can we not conclude that Adam had that relationship prior to his sin? If we are said to be dead in our sin, spiritually, would Adam not have been the same?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Again, you are offering OPINIONS to add to the Bible.

Is this not what your doing?

But what you offer is NOT what the Bible says.

And in regards to Spiritual Life, your opinions are contrary to Scripture.

The issue here is that you are asking people to believe your opinions as if they were God's Word. But that are not.

There is a reason the Hebrew people NEVER ONCE read Genesis to indicate his death was anything but physical.

There is a reason the early Christians NEVER ONCE read Genesis to indicate his death was anything but physical.

I get that it is popular to believe the Jews and early Christians were less intelligent people. I just reject that idea. They listened to the prophets, to Jesus, and to the Apostles. Sure, we have had centuries of various theological traditions, BUT it should all go back to God and His Word.

You can believe what you want. all you offer is your OPINION. everyone I know always believed that Adam died just as God said he would. On that day, you will surely die..

you can tell it with the way adam immediately changed.. the things of God became foolishness to him.. That is a result of spiritual death;

 

[HeirofSalvation]

.
he said IN THE DAY, you will die

Yes, and that is prolepsis, and it is used throughout the Hebrew Bible, often using those precise words:
1Ki 2:37
For it shall be, that on the day thou goest out, and passest over the brook Kidron, thou shalt know for certain that thou shalt surely die: thy blood shall be upon thine own head.

1Ki 2:42
And the king sent and called for Shimei, and said unto him, Did I not make thee to swear by the LORD, and protested unto thee, saying, Know for a certain, on the day thou goest out, and walkest abroad any whither, that thou shalt surely die? and thou saidst unto me, The word that I have heard is good.
(Shimei did not die that very exact day....nor did Shimei dream up that that was what he was being told)
Genesis 20:3 — The New King James Version (NKJV)
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, “Indeed you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man’s wife.”
(Abimelech didn't ultimately even die) That doesn't mean God was mistaken.

This was never a problem for the first 5500 years of human history: no one would have imagined Genesis was trying to say what you have been taught it is saying.

Not 900 years later

His death was ultimately realized 900 years later. It is only by reading modern Theological presuppositions back into the Genesis narrative that this confusion is created.

physical death, like sickness, Cancer Disease, Weeds, Famine bad storms are a result of sin. not the penalty of sin.

Physical death is the penalty for sin, and the result of sin.
Eternal life is the gift found only in Christ.

I am not ready anything back into the text. I am reading he text as written

Genesis 1-3 says zero, zilch, nada about "Spiritual Death". You are rewriting it to fit Theological assumptions.
It is explaining to ancient man why humans die. The context tells us that. God goes on to explain that Adam can't eat of the tree of life "lest he eat and live forever"...So God kicked man out of the garden.
Everything you are arguing is 100% imported into the text, not derived from it.
If you imagine that the author of Genesis' intent is to speak of "spiritual" death, than he is a very ambiguous and unclear writer who never says as much.

If he is explaining the cause of disease, weeds, illness, and physical death he's done a bang-up job. He is indeed informing us about the latter he is a good writer after all.

Theologically, we can perhaps say, with some confidence, that Adam "Spiritually died" that day with future insight and future revelation; iff by "Spiritual death" we mean separation from God via sin et. al....O.K fair enough. That isn't false or necessarily Theologically inaccurate. But this future insight did not exist when Genesis was written. Pauline epistles did not exist when Genesis was written.

Just don't imagine that that is what Genesis is saying. That's something you are saying.
Even if it is true, it is incidentally and tangentially true and it is not the initial author's intent.

 

[JD731]

I don't follow your logic here. "Firstborn" means "preeminence", not chronology.

This identifies the problem in denominational Christianity today. This is a flat denial of the word of God. Thank you for not trying to prove that statement from scripture because you would need to deny other scriptures to do it. You are believing someone who has made up a new meaning for the word "firstborn" and you are not believing God. The fact that Jesus Christ is the firstborn son of God from the dead gives him the preeminence. He is the first to be born of the Spirit of God. He is the head of a new family. He is the Last Adam, he is the second man. God has taught us all through scripture that he cannot accomplish his purpose through the flesh.

The New Testament is God starting over and proving that he can and will accomplish his purpose through the Spirit. All men are dead spiritually, including Jesus Christ, if one accepts the definition of death as separation. The resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead proves everything that God says and illustrates in the four thousand years of the Old Testament times because it is the Spirit who raises Jesus from the dead and quickens his body. It is a birth and makes Jesus a threefold man., body, soul, and Spirit, three in one and one in three. This is the image of God and it could not have been accomplished by anyone but God and by anyone but Jesus Christ and by any other means than by the power of the Spirit of God.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Every man born in the Old Testament times was born of Adam. They were in his image They were dead spiritually. Every man born of a woman, even now, are born into the family of Adam and has his image. This is where we insert the lesson of Ishmael and Isaac and see what God intends by it. We see that Abraham attempting to please God by taking Hagar to produce the promised seed only caused chaos. Ishmael represents humanity born of the will of the flesh. They do not have the Spirit and are unconcerned about God and his laws. But God willing to demonstrate that he would send his own son, illustrated it by promising that Abraham and Sarah, being past childbearing, will yet have a son. This illustrates the miraculous physical birth by God of Jesus Christ. Isaac, in type, is the first begotten son of God. Ishmael grew up to have his own family and was always the enemy of the family of Isaac.

Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Next among the 3 Patriarchs is Jacob, producing the family of God. He represents the Spirit of God in type. All the children through whom God gives his laws and accomplishes his purposes are born through this man. We can learn of the present work of the Spirit of forming the church, the family of God, by this man Jacob. He, like Isaac, was the second born son. God is teaching us if we will hear that there must be two births, one of the flesh and a second by the Spirit. This truth is illustrated everywhere in the OT scriptures if one has eyes to see.

All the doctrines and mysteries of the new testament are hidden in the types and similitudes of the OT.

Ro 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Mt 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Isa 48:6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.

So, with that in mind, Jesus Christ was the beginning of a new work of God. It began at the beginning of a three day period of time called the last days. It is the last three days of the week ending on the sabbath of rest. The work that God is doing is finished at the end of the second day, which is the sixth day over all. Of course one will need to reckon a day as one thousand years and a thousand years as a day as God said he does, which very few even believe. This is a miraculous physical birth of Jesus Christ like Isaac's. The new week, which begins on the eighth day, or the day after the sabbath of rest, begins with the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. This is actual fact and it is also prophetically typical of the outworking of God's prophetic program of restoring his order. Jesus Christ identified with Adam's race in his birth and in his death and died so that the dead men in Adam might live in him. He took away the condemnation of sin and he rose from the dead with life.

Continued next post.

 

[JD731]

Continued from above;

Here is some commentary on the resurrection body .
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So God is working through the last Adam in days five and six to create a new man, a new family. This family is the family of God. It is in the image of the last Adam who is in the image of God. It is entered into by a birth. That which the first Adam corrupted by his sin is renewed by the obedience of the Last Adam. That which was born of the physical can now be born of the Spirit. Jesus Christ is the second man. The picture has been drawn in type all through history. Christians who have the Spirit of God to teach them have no excuse to remain ignorant of these things. God has preserved a Bible with his words in it. His words have meaning and we must believe them if we are going to understand God and his ways.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Don't let anyone tell you that Bible words have different meanings because they are spoken by God. Here is the context of Col 1:18 where we find the word preeminence..

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (that is he is the firstborn of every creature in this kingdom)
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

All those who are in this new creation, beginning when he rose from the dead, a birth, the first of it's kind - Jesus really was dead as the Bible defines death.

All those in Adam's family were in his image and are spiritually dead. At the end of history, all in this kingdom of God of which Jesus Christ is head are spiritually alive. This is where God is taking us in his magnificent and glorious wisdom. When the church of Jesus Christ receives our new bodies at the translation, all traces of Adam's nature will be eliminated in us and the stamp of God and his image alone will be upon us.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, and that is prolepsis, and it is used throughout the Hebrew Bible, often using those precise words:
1Ki 2:37
For it shall be, that on the day thou goest out, and passest over the brook Kidron, thou shalt know for certain that thou shalt surely die: thy blood shall be upon thine own head.

1Ki 2:42
And the king sent and called for Shimei, and said unto him, Did I not make thee to swear by the LORD, and protested unto thee, saying, Know for a certain, on the day thou goest out, and walkest abroad any whither, that thou shalt surely die? and thou saidst unto me, The word that I have heard is good.
(Shimei did not die that very exact day....nor did Shimei dream up that that was what he was being told)
Genesis 20:3 — The New King James Version (NKJV)
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, “Indeed you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man’s wife.”
(Abimelech didn't ultimately even die) That doesn't mean God was mistaken.

This was never a problem for the first 5500 years of human history: no one would have imagined Genesis was trying to say what you have been taught it is saying.

His death was ultimately realized 900 years later. It is only by reading modern Theological presuppositions back into the Genesis narrative that this confusion is created.

Physical death is the penalty for sin, and the result of sin.
Eternal life is the gift found only in Christ.

Genesis 1-3 says zero, zilch, nada about "Spiritual Death". You are rewriting it to fit Theological assumptions.
It is explaining to ancient man why humans die. The context tells us that. God goes on to explain that Adam can't eat of the tree of life "lest he eat and live forever"...So God kicked man out of the garden.
Everything you are arguing is 100% imported into the text, not derived from it.
If you imagine that the author of Genesis' intent is to speak of "spiritual" death, than he is a very ambiguous and unclear writer who never says as much.

If he is explaining the cause of disease, weeds, illness, and physical death he's done a bang-up job. He is indeed informing us about the latter he is a good writer after all.

Theologically, we can perhaps say, with some confidence, that Adam "Spiritually died" that day with future insight and future revelation; iff by "Spiritual death" we mean separation from God via sin et. al....O.K fair enough. That isn't false or necessarily Theologically inaccurate. But this future insight did not exist when Genesis was written. Pauline epistles did not exist when Genesis was written.

Just don't imagine that that is what Genesis is saying. That's something you are saying.
Even if it is true, it is incidentally and tangentially true and it is not the initial author's intent.

the penalty of sin is death

the gift of God is life

It is not physical death that was the penalty. Because when we pass from death to life (being born again) are not resurrected from a physical death to a physical life. it is all spiritual

If the penalty of sin is spiritual death, then Adam died spiritually when he sinned.

No amount of spin from anyone can take away from the fact Adam died the penalty of sin when he sinned, and had to be born again like the rest of us.

 

[JonC]

Just couple of things to say here. On what basis do you make that claim that neither the Jews or Christians said anything re the spiritual death of Adam or anyone? That they did not mention it in the bible text?

If you say well it is not in the bible so that settles it, OK. With that in mind how do we know there is a Trinity or for that matter that God is sovereign? Were not told that in the bible in clear text are we. We have to draw those logical conclusions from the information that we find in scripture and rightly so.

So when we say that Adam died spiritually we draw that from the information that we find in scripture. If we are made alive, spiritually, when we are in Christ and this means we have a close relationship to God, can we not conclude that Adam had that relationship prior to his sin? If we are said to be dead in our sin, spiritually, would Adam not have been the same?

I make the claim that the Hebrew faith and early Christians viewed death in Genesis as physical rather than spiritual because they viewed Adam's death as physical rather than spiritual. Read the writings of the early church and what type of death they saw as introduced as the consequence of sin (same with Jewish theology).

We know that God is a Triune God because Scripture says so (it is in the actual text of Scripture). We know God is sovereign because it is in the text of Scripture (in what is written).

And we know the consequences of Adam's sin was not a spiritual death because Scripture tells us that this death is Adam returning to dust.

The idea that a man (even Adam and Eve) can have spiritual life and loose that spiritual life contradicts Scripture. So it is not really a logical conclusion from the Bible. It is instead a tradition many hold and try to go back and support it with Scripture. But it is a false doctrine.

 

[Silverhair]

I make the claim that the Hebrew faith and early Christians viewed death in Genesis as physical rather than spiritual because they viewed Adam's death as physical rather than spiritual. Read the writings of the early church and what type of death they saw as introduced as the consequence of sin (same with Jewish theology).

We know that God is a Triune God because Scripture says so (it is in the actual text of Scripture). We know God is sovereign because it is in the text of Scripture (in what is written).

And we know the consequences of Adam's sin was not a spiritual death because Scripture tells us that this death is Adam returning to dust.

The idea that a man (even Adam and Eve) can have spiritual life and loose that spiritual life contradicts Scripture. So it is not really a logical conclusion from the Bible. It is instead a tradition many hold and try to go back and support it with Scripture. But it is a false doctrine.

Both the Trinity and God's sovereignty are logical deductions from scripture and I would suggest that the same can be said for the spiritual death of Adam. You, obviously do not see it that way but for you to say it is something that only came from the RCC is to my mind a step to far.

When we are in Christ and have a relationship with God we are spiritually alive. When Adam sinned against God in the garden he broke that relationship with God and thus dies spiritually. You may not agree with that but it is a logical deduction none the less.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

the penalty of sin is death

Correct.

the gift of God is life

correct

It is not physical death that was the penalty.

It was exactly that.
That's what Genesis gives us.

Because when we pass from death to life (being born again) are not resurrected from a physical death to a physical life. it is all spiritual

That is Systematic Theology talking:
Not Genesis. Genesis says nothing about being "born again".

If the penalty of sin is spiritual death, then Adam died spiritually when he sinned.

It isn't "Spiritual Death.
It was being prevented access to the tree of life lest he live forever death.
It was ashes to ashes dust to dust death.

No amount of spin from anyone can take away from the fact Adam died the penalty of sin when he sinned, and had to be born again like the rest of us.

This isn't about spin.
Genesis, taken in its original context would have been taken by its initial audience as explaining human death, sickness, struggle et. al. Spiritual death is Pauline/ New Testament speak.

The task of good hermeneutics is to understand how a writing was to be understood by its initial target audience and build from that.

Nothing in Genesis is about "Spiritual Death". It doesn't use such terminology. That is your Theology importing New Testament speak upon and Old Testament text and reinterpreting it in light of a system you already embrace.
No original reader of Genesis would have understood the narrative that way.

Adam was made of dust, and it was to dust he would return.........that is the Genesis narrative.

 

[MrW]

This is SUCH a no-brainer. All kids are born sinners from Adam. You don’t teach your kids to lie nor steal. It’s intrinsic. Yes, Adam died spiritually to God the moment he sinned and physically before the first thousand-year-day elapsed.

I wish this thread would die physically. [emoji846]

 

[Silverhair]

Correct.

correct

It was exactly that.
That's what Genesis gives us.

That is Systematic Theology talking:
Not Genesis. Genesis says nothing about being "born again".

It isn't "Spiritual Death.
It was being prevented access to the tree of life lest he live forever death.
It was ashes to ashes dust to dust death.

This isn't about spin.
Genesis, taken in its original context would have been taken by its initial audience as explaining human death, sickness, struggle et. al. Spiritual death is Pauline/ New Testament speak.

The task of good hermeneutics is to understand how a writing was to be understood by its initial target audience and build from that.

Nothing in Genesis is about "Spiritual Death". It doesn't use such terminology. That is your Theology importing New Testament speak upon and Old Testament text and reinterpreting it in light of a system you already embrace.
No original reader of Genesis would have understood the narrative that way.

Adam was made of dust, and it was to dust he would return.........that is the Genesis narrative.

Do you actually believe that God has changed? If we post the law/cross are considered to have died spiritually due to our sin do you think it was somehow different prior to the law/cross? There are many things that we understand post the cross that they did not understand prior to the cross so to say the original audience did not understand spiritual death is actually a weak argument.

I am not requiring that they had to view "you will surely die" in the same way we do but the bible is clear that separation from God is spiritual death. So what you have to make clear in your mind is, did Adam's sin separate him from God. If it did then Adam died spiritually. If you say it did not then how does our sin separate us from God?

 

[Silverhair]

This is SUCH a no-brainer. All kids are born sinners from Adam. You don’t teach your kids to lie nor steal. It’s intrinsic. Yes, Adam died spiritually to God the moment he sinned and physically before the first thousand-year-day elapsed.

I wish this thread would die physically. [emoji846]

On your last point I have to disagree, these are things that we should be able to discuss and hopefully come to some agreed understanding upon.

 

[MrW]

We should but the obvious is apparently not so obvious after all, apparently. Scripture, to me, is perfectly clear. If Adam did not die spiritually neither did his progeny, we were all born saints, and Christ didn’t have to die for us because we were always good with God in our spirits, and all are alive in Adam.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Correct.

correct

It was exactly that.
That's what Genesis gives us.

So adam stayed alive spiritually even though he sinned??

That is Systematic Theology talking:
Not Genesis. Genesis says nothing about being "born again".

It isn't "Spiritual Death.
It was being prevented access to the tree of life lest he live forever death.
It was ashes to ashes dust to dust death.

This isn't about spin.
Genesis, taken in its original context would have been taken by its initial audience as explaining human death, sickness, struggle et. al. Spiritual death is Pauline/ New Testament speak.

The task of good hermeneutics is to understand how a writing was to be understood by its initial target audience and build from that.

Nothing in Genesis is about "Spiritual Death". It doesn't use such terminology. That is your Theology importing New Testament speak upon and Old Testament text and reinterpreting it in light of a system you already embrace.
No original reader of Genesis would have understood the narrative that way.

Adam was made of dust, and it was to dust he would return.........that is the Genesis narrative.

get off theology. it is just reality.

Adam did not remain alive spiritually after he sinned. neither his actions or his words showed he was the same..

 

[MrW]

I don't know that Adam ever repented and placed his faith in God. Nor Eve.

I'm not saying they DIDN'T--I just don't know any place in Scripture that indicates they did. Do you?

It is doubtful Adam was aware of any new birth--Nicodemus, a master in Israel, was not aware of it, over 4000 years later.

 

[JonC]

Both the Trinity and God's sovereignty are logical deductions from scripture and I would suggest that the same can be said for the spiritual death of Adam. You, obviously do not see it that way but for you to say it is something that only came from the RCC is to my mind a step to far.

When we are in Christ and have a relationship with God we are spiritually alive. When Adam sinned against God in the garden he broke that relationship with God and thus dies spiritually. You may not agree with that but it is a logical deduction none the less.

I'm not sure of your doctrine of the Trinity (I know there are versions) but mine is not a deduction. I can show verses where God is Father, Son, and Spirit separately; I can show verses that God is One, and I can show verses where each are "persons". If your doctrine of the Trinity goes beyond that then I agree it may be derived from rather actually in "what is written'.

The reason I believe the doctrine of Adam dying spiritually came from Catholic (not necessarily Roman Catholic) doctrine is the fact it was foreign to Christianity prior to Rome making Christianity its official religion and it came out of the Catholic Church.

They chalk up the Hebrew and earlier Christian view that focused on physical death to an understanding during times of persecution. I just cannot get behind that idea because those people we are supposed to view as ignorant of Scripture are the ones who sat under the teachings of the prophets, the teachings of Christ, and the teachings of the Apostles.

 

[JonC]

@Silverhair

The issue is not people believing Adam died spiritually or even physically and resurrected. Nether are true, but that isn't the issue.

The issue is they have the idea and then build doctrines on that shakey ground.

IMHO it is better to simply trust Scripture and rely on what God told Adam regarding this death after Adam sinned.

What did God say would happen to Adam because of his sin?

 

[Silverhair]

I'm not sure of your doctrine of the Trinity (I know there are versions) but mine is not a deduction. I can show verses where God is Father, Son, and Spirit separately; I can show verses that God is One, and I can show verses where each are "persons". If your doctrine of the Trinity goes beyond that then I agree it may be derived from rather actually in "what is written'.

The reason I believe the doctrine of Adam dying spiritually came from Catholic (not necessarily Roman Catholic) doctrine is the fact it was foreign to Christianity prior to Rome making Christianity its official religion and it came out of the Catholic Church.

They chalk up the Hebrew and earlier Christian view that focused on physical death to an understanding during times of persecution. I just cannot get behind that idea because those people we are supposed to view as ignorant of Scripture are the ones who sat under the teachings of the prophets, the teachings of Christ, and the teachings of the Apostles.

JonC you have just shown what I have been saying. We find Father, Son and Spirit in one verse so we can conclude that the Trinity is true. Deduction. And I agree we can show verses that God is One, and I can show verses where each are "persons". Again deduction for the Trinity. And that is what I have been saying re Adam spiritually dead. We are shown that separation from Christ is spiritually dead so logically separation form God by Adam would be spiritually dead. Sin separates us from God whether in OT or NT it results in the same thing. Do you see what I am saying?
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have built barriers between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He does not hear.

I do not need the words God is Sovereign to know that He is and I do not need the words Adam was spiritually dead to know that he was.