Did Adam Have a Free Will?

[Aaron]

@Baptizo said:

My position is that Adam had the libertarian free choice not to sin, whereas the Calvinist’s position is that Adam had no other choice but to sin. If God has decreed all things that come to pass, that would include Adam’s sin. I’ve heard others try to explain this away with the concept of primary and secondary causes, but I chalk all that up to philosophical thinking.

Christ said, A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree good.

Adam was created good...but not uncorruptible. What corrupting influence was found in the Garden, and was it there by God's will?

 

[KenH]

The last Adam must die;
Therefore, the first Adam must fall.

 

[Charlie24]

@Baptizo said:

My position is that Adam had the libertarian free choice not to sin, whereas the Calvinist’s position is that Adam had no other choice but to sin. If God has decreed all things that come to pass, that would include Adam’s sin. I’ve heard others try to explain this away with the concept of primary and secondary causes, but I chalk all that up to philosophical thinking.

Christ said, A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree good.

Adam was created good...but not uncorruptible. What corrupting influence was found in the Garden, and was it there by God's will?

God could have prevented Satan from entering the Garden, He could have created man without the possibilities of sin, but He didn't, why?

It's not that God decreed that man would fall so much as the reality of free will must run its course.

In order for God to have what He wanted from man, that is, man by his own choice choosing to be with God, man has to exercise that free will.

The inevitable result of man exercising this gift of free will was his choice to believe a lie. This scenario had to be made possible for man if God were have what He wanted in the end.

Now that man has exercised his free will and brought pain and destruction, death, disease, etc., upon himself, God made a way for those who would freely choose Him, to be with Him through His plan of redemption.

 

[Van]

@Baptizo said:

My position is that Adam had the libertarian free choice not to sin, whereas the Calvinist’s position is that Adam had no other choice but to sin. If God has decreed all things that come to pass, that would include Adam’s sin. I’ve heard others try to explain this away with the concept of primary and secondary causes, but I chalk all that up to philosophical thinking.

Christ said, A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree good.

Adam was created good...but not uncorruptible. What corrupting influence was found in the Garden, and was it there by God's will?

Addressing the thread title, no Adam did not have a free will after the fall. Before the fall, Adam's will was not as limited as it was after the fall. But, even before the fall, Adam operated within the purview allowed by God, so it was not totally free.

Turning to the posted question, the corrupting influence was Adam's ability to choose to go against God's will. Without that, he would not have chosen to sin and eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

OTOH, God had chosen Christ to be His Redeemer, His "Lamb of God" before creation (i.e. before Adam was created) and so God certainly anticipated Adam's sin and the fall of humanity. Thus the forbidden tree fruit and the allowance of Satan to deceive Eve. We cannot say God compelled Adam to sin, but God certainly provided the opportunity. In A. W. Pink's words, God arranged the fall.

 

[Silverhair]

Addressing the thread title, no Adam did not have a free will after the fall. Before the fall, Adam's will was not as limited as it was after the fall. But, even before the fall, Adam operated within the purview allowed by God, so it was not totally free.

Turning to the posted question, the corrupting influence was Adam's ability to choose to go against God's will. Without that, he would not have chosen to sin and eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

OTOH, God had chosen Christ to be His Redeemer, His "Lamb of God" before creation (i.e. before Adam was created) and so God certainly anticipated Adam's sin and the fall of humanity. Thus the forbidden tree fruit and the allowance of Satan to deceive Eve. We cannot say God compelled Adam to sin, but God certainly provided the opportunity. In A. W. Pink's words, God arranged the fall.

"no Adam did not have a free will after the fall."

Care to show where God said Adam did not have a free will after the fall?

Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.
Gen 3:18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return."

"But, even before the fall, Adam operated within the purview allowed by God, so it was not totally free."

So if Adam did not have a free will prior to the fall then God made him sin, is that what you are saying?

And further if Adam did not have a free will after the fall then how was it the Cain did. Or are you going to tell us God made Cain kill Abel?

Gen 4:6 So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."
Gen 4:8 Now Cain talked with Abel his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.
Gen 4:9 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" He said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?"
Gen 4:10 And He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood cries out to Me from the ground.
Gen 4:11 "So now you are cursed from the earth, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand.
Gen 4:12 "When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield its strength to you. A fugitive and a vagabond you shall be on the earth."

 

[JonC]

@Baptizo said:

My position is that Adam had the libertarian free choice not to sin, whereas the Calvinist’s position is that Adam had no other choice but to sin. If God has decreed all things that come to pass, that would include Adam’s sin. I’ve heard others try to explain this away with the concept of primary and secondary causes, but I chalk all that up to philosophical thinking.

Christ said, A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree good.

Adam was created good...but not uncorruptible. What corrupting influence was found in the Garden, and was it there by God's will?

I don't believe libertarian free-will exists. In fact, that Adam sinned and ate the fruit which was pleasing to the eye, good for food, and desirable to make one wise like God kinda points to Adam being influenced by the desires of the flesh.

Adam's sin was the fruit produced by his nature (by having a mind set on the desires of the flesh).

Satan deceived Eve, and I suppose you could say Satan and Eve aided in Adam's temptation. But giving in to that temptation was the corruption and that was Adam. His mind was set on the desires of the flesh.

 

[Silverhair]

I don't believe libertarian free-will exists. In fact, that Adam sinned and ate the fruit which was pleasing to the eye, good for food, and desirable yo make one wise like God kinda points to Adam being influenced by the desires of the flesh.

Adam's sin was the fruit produced by his nature (by having a mind set on the desires of the flesh).

So if you do not believe that a person has a free will then all things have to be dictated, correct? To which I am sure you will say NO.

Adam still had to freely make a choice or the action was determined from outside of him.

To even say that it was his nature does not remove the free will, it just means that his nature was one of the influencing factors. Just as Eve offering him the fruit was a factor.

But at the end of the day the choice was either determined or it was free.

 

[37818]

Before Adam's disobedience he had free will. Now the whole human race has a will tainted with the sin nature. We still think of it as a free will, but we now practice sin.

 

[Silverhair]

Before Adam's disobedience he had free will. Now the whole human race has a will tainted with the sin nature. We still think of it as a free will, but we now practice sin.

Adam practiced sin via his free will so nothing has changed. The free will that he had is the same free will that we have.

 

[37818]

Adam practiced sin via his free will so nothing has changed. The free will that he had is the same free will that we have.

Not true. Genesis 3:22, . . . And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: . . .

 

[Reynolds]

If it was determined before creation that Jesus would die then it had to be determined Adam would sin.

 

[Silverhair]

Not true. Genesis 3:22, . . . And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: . . .

Did Adam or us loose our free will? The free will that he had is the same free will that we have.

Knowing good from evil does not affect whether one has a free will or not.

 

[Silverhair]

If it was determined before creation that Jesus would die then it had to be determined Adam would sin.

Why?

 

[atpollard]

Why?

Was it possible that Adam would never sin, Christ would never come to redeem man from sin, and all human beings would forever remain obedient creatures and NEVER become beloved children of God?

If that was never a possibility, then Adam’s will was never completely free in the “libertarian” sense.

 

[37818]

Knowing good from evil does not affect whether one has a free will or not.

Wrong. The knowledge of evil is like deadly poison to cause the sin nature.

God is infinitely good, man was only a very good but very finite good.

 

[Silverhair]

Wrong. The knowledge of evil is like deadly poison to cause the sin nature.

God is infinitely good, man was only a very good but very finite good.

You have not addressed what I said 38.

Do we have a free will or not, that is the question.

You seem to be off on some tangent that has nothing to do with my posts.

Where did I refer to the goodness of God in my post?

 

[Silverhair]

Was it possible that Adam would never sin, Christ would never come to redeem man from sin, and all human beings would forever remain obedient creatures and NEVER become beloved children of God?

If that was never a possibility, then Adam’s will was never completely free in the “libertarian” sense.

Was it possible that Adam never sin, of course it was if that was what God's plan was. But since it was within God's plan that man exercise his free will and because of God's foreknowledge He knew what Adam would do, sin, He had made a plan with that in mind.

The only options are that man has a God given free will or all things are determined. If the first then man is responsible for his choices, if the second then God is responsible for man's choices.

The bible says man is responsible so we see that man has a free will.

 

[37818]

Do we have a free will or not,

Are we able to be sinless?

 

[atpollard]

Are we able to be sinless?

He believes Adam at least was.
(I disagree, but some arguments are not worth the effort … like proving the determinism of God’s plan as a part of his aseity).

 

[atpollard]

Was it possible that Adam never sin, of course it was if that was what God's plan was. But since it was within God's plan that man exercise his free will and because of God's foreknowledge He knew what Adam would do, sin, He had made a plan with that in mind.

The only options are that man has a God given free will or all things are determined. If the first then man is responsible for his choices, if the second then God is responsible for man's choices.

The bible says man is responsible so we see that man has a free will.

Man has a limited free will … he can choose from among options, but not from among all possible options without influence … man can only choose according to his (fallen) nature or his (new) nature … the leopard cannot change its spots and the bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

God’s plan is not driven by the choices of man … that violates “first cause” and ”aseity of God”.